Good morning. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Besi's conference call and audio webcast to discuss the company's 2025 second quarter results. You can register for the conference call or log into the audio webcast via Besi's website, www.besi.com. Joining us today are Mr. Richard Blickman, Chief Executive Officer, and Mrs. Andrea Kopp-Battaglia, Senior Vice President, Finance. Currently, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, this conference is being recorded and cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without permission from the company. I would like to remind everyone that on today's call, management will be making forward-looking statements. All statements other than statements of historical facts may be forward-looking statements.
Forward-looking statements reflect Besi's current views and assumptions regarding future events, many of which are by nature inherently uncertain and beyond Besi's control. Actual results may differ materially from those in the forward-looking statements due to various risks and uncertainties, including, but not limited to, factors that are discussed in the company's most recent periodic and current reports filed with the AFM. Such forward-looking statements, including guidance provided during today's call, speak only as of this date, and Besi does not intend to update them in light of any new information or future developments, nor does Besi undertake any obligations to update the forward-looking statements. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Blickman.
Thank you. Thank you all for joining us today. For today's call, we'd like to review the key highlights for our second quarter and six months ended June 30, 2025, and update you on the market, our strategy, and the outlook. First, some overall thoughts on the second quarter and the first half year 2025. Besi reported the second quarter revenue, operating income, and net income of EUR 148.1 million, EUR 43.5 million, and EUR 32.1 million, respectively. Revenue and operating results were at the midpoint of prior guidance in a mainstream assembly equipment market still affected by soft demand for mobile and automotive applications. Market development in Q2 this year was also affected by increased customer caution due to global trade tensions.
Q2 2025 revenue and operating income grew sequentially by 2.8% and 10.7%, respectively, as we saw an increase in shipments to Asian subcontractors for AI-related data center applications, combined with a 4.3% decrease in sequential operating expenses. Orders for the quarter decreased by 3% versus the first quarter, as weakness in mainstream computing and mobile applications was partly offset by new orders for Besi's TCB Next system. For the first half year, revenue of EUR 292.2 million decreased by 1.8% versus the first half last year, reflecting broader assembly market trends as weakness in mobile and, to a lesser extent, automotive end markets was significantly offset by growth in hybrid bonding systems revenue, which more than doubled versus the first half last year. Orders decreased by 17% due to the timing of customer orders for hybrid bonding systems and a lack of new product introductions in high-end smartphones.
The first half 2025 operating and net income decreased by 8% and 16.2%, respectively, versus the first half last year, primarily due to lower revenue and a 2.7-point reduction in gross margin from a less favorable product mix, at first net foreign exchange effects from the decline of the US dollar versus the euro, and increased interest expense related to Besi's senior note issuance in July last year. Liquidity remained strong, with cash and deposits EUR 492.2 million at the end of June 2025, increasing by 19.6% versus June 30, 2024. The sequential decrease in cash and deposits at quarter end reflected the timing of the annual dividend payment, along with the purchase of our Duiven, Netherlands facility for EUR 14.9 million.
As of June 30, 2025, EUR 72.2 million of the current EUR 100 million share repurchase authorization has been used to repurchase approximately 644,000 ordinary shares at an average price of EUR 111.96 per share. As of June 30, 2025, Besi held approximately 2 million shares in treasury, equivalent to 2.5% of shares outstanding. Next, I'd like to discuss the current market environment and our strategy. Tech Insights currently forecasts assembly market growth of 9% in 2025, which is below last quarter's forecast of 13%, driven by a push-out of the anticipated mainstream assembly upturn to the second half of this year. Anticipated growth 2025 is focused primarily on AI and data center logic and memory applications. They expect cumulative growth in the 2026-2029 period of 63% based on continued advancements in AI use cases, new product introductions in the 2026-2028 period, and a cyclical recovery in mainstream assembly applications.
We expect to exceed market growth rates given our leadership position in advanced packaging. We believe the outlook for Besi's business in the second half of 2025 has improved in recent weeks based on customer feedback and order trends subsequent to quarter end. Extended CapEx budgets for AI infrastructure have been confirmed by each of the leading industry players in recent quarters, with new use cases emerging in cloud and edge computing, along with co-package optics. Advanced packaging is one of the key ways to achieve AI systems differentiation, develop innovative consumer edge AI devices, and provide the most energy-efficient data center performance. Advanced packaging demand for AI applications remains strong given new device introductions expected in the 2026 to 2028 period. We believe we are well positioned in the fastest-growing advanced packaging market segments, including data centers for photonics, AI and arts PCs, and mobile devices, and EV/autonomous driving.
As such, orders for hybrid bonding systems are expected to increase significantly in the second half 2025 versus both first half 2025 and second half 2024. In both advanced logic and HBM4 memory applications, as customers advance their technology roadmaps for new product introductions in 2026 and 2027. Customer interest in our TC Next system for both memory and logic applications has also expanded significantly. TC Next cycle times have improved, with shipments anticipated in Q4 this year from orders received in the second quarter this year. We also anticipate increased orders for 2.5D advanced packaging systems for AI-related data center applications from both global IDMs and Asian subcontractors. In addition, there are early signs of a recovery in our mainstream assembly markets, principally related to increased demand by Asian subcontractors for high-end mobile applications and high-performance computing applications for consumer markets. Now, a few words about the guidance.
For the third quarter 2025, we anticipate that revenue will decline by approximately 5%-15% versus the second quarter of this year, based on the order book at quarter end. However, orders in the third quarter 2025 are expected to increase significantly on a sequential basis due to increased demand for hybrid bonding 2.5D advanced packaging applications. Besi's gross margins are anticipated to decline to a range between 60%-62% in the third quarter due to the adverse impact of a 12% decline in the value of the U.S. dollar versus the euro in the first half of 2025. Operating expenses in the third quarter are expected to be flat, plus or minus 5% versus the second quarter, despite increased R&D spending. That ends my prepared remarks. I would like to open the call for some questions. Operator.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are now ready to take your questions. If you wish to ask a question, please press pound five on your telephone keypad. We kindly remind you that you are limited to one question and a follow-up. If you wish to withdraw your question, please press pound six on your telephone keypad.
Next question comes from Nigel van Putten from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for additional color on the expected hybrid bonding orders. If I sum this up, the second half is going to be stronger than both the first half of 2025 and the second half of 2024. That's helpful. Can I just tease you and ask, what about the first half of 2024 when you received a sizable order from one customer? Should we think similar ballpark, higher, lower? Any additional color would be helpful. Thanks. I have a follow-up.
That's always hard to tell. It's usually orders in sequence, in lumps, as they call it, quarter by quarter. It can be somewhat higher or somewhat lower. What has been the trend so far? The highest we received was 26 from one customer in one quarter. Then typically somewhere between 12 and 20 in other historical, let's say, order patterns. We also mentioned we don't expect from only one customer. We expect from other customers, but those are not bigger volumes. They are below five order systems at a time. Your question is a very good one, but that leads to summing that up somewhere in that range. What is more important is that we also see continued adoption in more applications in logic, but also now an ever more serious commitment in the stacking of memories, the HBM4. Also confirmed publicly by the Korean companies.
That could also lead to orders which we have no clear visibility yet in respect to the intended volumes.
That's really helpful. I have another question. On the order book you reported in the second quarter of 2025. The orders out of China and rest of Asia are picking up, but the rest of the world, including Europe and the U.S., dropped quite significantly. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that's usually driven by two U.S. customers, one in mainstream compute and one in mobile. Yeah, you highlighted as much in the prepared remarks. Considering some worries in the market about especially that mainstream compute customer, should we expect this to remain at a lower level going into the rest of the year or maybe even next year? Is there any additional color you could provide?
Because yes, we both understand, I mean, I understand that conditions in especially mobile haven't really picked up, but it is, I think, one of the weakest order intakes from that region in a while. Any color will be helpful. Thanks.
Yeah. To add to your observation, in Europe, it's very much related to the automotive industry being soft, but there are some early signs of some recovery for new products mainly. Europe is, for that reason, low. U.S., clearly, two big drivers. One, the compute, and the other one, the mobile, but there's also other customers, as we know. The one you're referring to, which starts with an I and ends with an L, yeah, we all know from daily publications that the situation is pretty unclear. One would expect, based on similar situations in the past with companies in our industry, that the outcome will be a continuation with the high-end, with the applications which also are next-generation technology. You may expect less investment, and we already see that in the more mature and certainly the lower-end products.
We are less involved in that second category already for many years. Our engagement is more at that forefront. We are anxiously waiting, and we're working day and night with that customer to see how the next round will be organized. For the time being, CapEx is very low. That's also publicly known, which may at some point turn because the demand for semiconductors doesn't change. On the mobile front, as we explained, for the outlook, we see certainly demand for new features in next-generation devices, where we are clearly involved, which is very positive. That this year is a soft year so far is also clear. It's maybe a bit longer than what we had in previous cycles for high-end smartphones. Maybe that also has to do with the last peak in 2021, so a longer-lasting, let's say, digestion of the features at that time.
There's a whole list which is publicly shared of features expected in next-generation high-end phones, and that should be a market next year where you see always initial.
Thank you very much.
Development. Year before. Okay.
Thanks, Richard.
Next question.
Next question comes from Sandeep Deshpande, J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.
Hi, Richard. Just a quick question on your TC orders and the customer base there. I mean, you announced some in Q2, and you're going to ship them later this year. I mean, I guess they are part of that improvement in orders that you expect in the third quarter. I mean, how broad is the customer base there, and is this going to be a significant contributor to your orders and the sales later this year or early next year? I have a quick follow-up as well.
It's slightly different than what is in your mind. We did receive from that customer in the second quarter a nice order for five systems, EUR 20 million plus. As we indicated, the shipment is expected Q3, Q4, probably at the end of Q3. It depends a bit on how the buy-off evolves, whether we are able to ship in Q3 or Q4. That's why there's this range in revenue between 5%-15% less than Q2. Next orders from that customer may be expected after installation of these five lines and successful product launch. As we indicated earlier, it's for a memory application. That could then lead to orders probably earliest Q4, but maybe more realistic in Q1. That can be a sizable expansion. We are gaining traction with this TC system because, remember, it's developed for the next generation below 20 micron bond package.
The world today is somewhere around 30-35 micron, as we understand. That finds its way into the logic space. There is data available published by IMEC in Belgium on our equipment, which even successfully has bonded devices with bond packages below 10 micron. That fills the world between the inevitable hybrid bonding shift and extension of the reflow process in a TC technology for the next many years to come. Successful so far in both, because remember, the development started for logic to be ready below 20 micron bond package and then being tested already for stacking memories. This will be for HBM4, probably 3 and 4, because the system offers significant improvements, as we explained in the capital markets day details. I welcome you to look at that if you are interested in more details. That's roughly the TC roadmap.
Thank you, Richard. I mean, just quickly on following up on your hybrid bonding roadmap, I mean, there's this one memory customer who is looking at hybrid bonding for the HBM4 and beyond, HBM4 Plus or whatever. I mean, where is that in terms of qualification? Because that is, I think, at the moment, simply a pilot line. There is no production planned yet. Is that on track, you see, or is it too early to say?
Number one, it's on track. Number two, if you follow the news in the last few days, it is both stepped up by the major Koreans, the two, that they will have these hybrid versions available for customer sampling because simply the customers drive this demand. That is in line with the roadmap. We have understood 2026 qualification and mainstream production towards the end, and also certainly in 2027. That is how the roadmap for HBM today, hybrid bonding, looks like. Developing in a certainly a positive way.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Next question comes from Didier Scemama from Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Hi, Richard. Thank you for taking my question. I've got two questions. First question on, let's say, your main advanced packaging customer for logic customers. I think you mentioned that they opened or they are about to open a second factory, which would need about 100 systems at full capacity. Given what you told us today in terms of all the intake, that should be meaningfully above in the second half. Has your confidence that that factory will ramp in line with what you thought? I think you were thinking like it would take two years to fill in the fab. Has that confidence strengthened, or is it still more or less the same as it was at the CMD?
If you look at the recent publication of the financials from this customer, you could expect that that timeline is intact. There are no negative signals, we understood. In addition to that, the global demand is the global demand. With the issues with the US customer currently, as discussed in the previous question, it could well be that the beneficiary of that is with the other customer. That's all to be seen. Key is that the adoption is continuing and also gaining pace. On the other hand, TC stretch is also in place, as we discussed also to the earlier question. There is no reason to answer your question in this way, to have in one month's time a different roadmap. It's more a positive confirmation, as we read it, than in another perspective.
Okay. Perfect. My second question is on gross margin. So, Richard. I mean, just help us understand a little bit what happened in the gross margin this quarter, and maybe just give us your thoughts as to whether you will take any actions to improve the cost structure in COGS or how we should—sorry, how we should be thinking about gross margin. In Q4 or into next year. Should we go back to the 62%-64% or even the higher level that you were thinking about at the CMD?
There are two aspects which are key to gross margin, as we know very well. Number one is pricing power. Pricing power in a world which is, let's say, continued in, let's say, a softer mode, is what it is. You can only distinguish yourself by better, yeah, let's say, specs and cost of ownership. That's the way you succeed on the top line. On the cost side, it's a never-ending battle and a very positive one. Where, on the one hand, we are successful because it's a buyer's market today. On the other hand, with the development of the dollar, as it did in the past four months, it is very hard to translate that immediately into, yeah, let's say, least effect.
If we look at what happened so far, that we more or less, yeah, have between 2% and 3% effect of a dollar which has declined by more than 12%. That still tells you that the first reason, the product positions, allow that we adjust our prices, which are in euros because we're a euro-based company, to, yeah, different exchange rates. To say that again, your profit is in your cost. Everyone is extra challenged. How can we improve our operating models for every one of our systems to improve those margins over time?
Okay. I take it.
That's that.
Your gross margins are going to go up then.
That depends on two things. Number one, do we maintain the product position, and does the dollar finally settle? We'll enjoy that together, Didier.
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thanks so much, Richard.
Thank you. Any next questions?
Next question comes from Madeleine Jenkins from UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi, Richard. Thanks for taking my question. I just have a few on the new flip chip tool that you announced at your CMD. I'm just kind of wondering when you're expecting to see the order ramp from this. The comments you made about improving 2.5D demand, is this more a kind of a share gain, or is this actual kind of capacity being added? That would be interesting. Thank you.
That's an excellent question. Number one, it is not based on the new system. This is, well, it's not old, but it's the top in the world, and we have, and we said that in earlier calls. Very high market share for these 2.5D, which are mass refloat. That is, yeah, continuing. Whether we gain share, I think we will. Because it's also broad, as we explain it. It's not only one customer. It's many subcontractors who are all tooling up. They select our systems, which is also perfect. The new system, which you refer to, is going to be launched Q1 next year. It will have tighter specs, and the current systems are somewhere in the 3 micron accuracy space. The new one is 1 micron accuracy. It also has other options. It's called Flex because the customer can handle more device types.
It's a bit of a combination of an MMA and a flip chip. We explained some details in the CMD, but we're happy at another moment to show you some more details. That offers further expansion of market share because that's all directly tied to these 2.5D modules, which is the way forward. Yeah, that's what it is.
Perfect. Thank you. I guess, a follow-up on that. Is this also a tool that could be used in sort of high-end mobile applications? When Apple changed their packaging, is this something that could be inserted? Thank you.
Exactly. It is for, you could say, chiplet type of architecture and also 2.5D, so stacked versions, which gives the customer more ability to combine different dies to be placed and also components, so that fits exactly in those categories. In the real mainstream high-volume consumer end products, in other words, whether that is mobile or edge AI, mobile, edge AI, probably in other portable devices, that's where it's intended for. At the same time, don't forget the glasses, the Google glasses, but now also others. That also has a very strong focus.
Perfect. Thank you, Richard.
Thank you, Madeline.
Next question comes from Martin Jungfleisch from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, again. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions up too. The first one is mainly on the expected orders you were talking about. Can you just confirm that these orders or some of these orders have already been signed in early Q3, or is there an expectation that these will be signed in Q3 or Q4? That is the first question. I have a follow-up.
Certainly, we have received already orders until date in Q3. As was mentioned in one of the sentences, it also accelerated from the first day of the quarter. Customers decided not to place in Q2, but to place in Q3. Some of it, you can qualify as being ordered in Q3, which may have been ordered in Q2. Anyway, it certainly is abroad, as we said before, for many applications. That should be significantly higher than the second quarter orders.
Okay. Thanks. Just a follow-up question on the Q3 guidance and the full year. For Q3, you're expecting revenues to decrease quarter on quarter, but at the same time, you're also saying you're seeing early signs of recovery in the mainstream business. How should we think about the seasonality of the mainstream business now for the next quarters, given that signs of the early recovery? Is that something different than over the past couple of quarters or past couple of years now?
No. The emphasis is on AI and very careful. Certain areas like automotive, for instance. It does not further decline. You see some improvements. Same with high-end smartphones, which was very soft until date. You see a pattern which may be similar to 2019, where we had a pickup towards the later part of Q3. Which now may be a bit earlier coming out of a downturn. If all goes well and Tech Insights forecasts should lead to a higher growth in 2026. That is what you could, let's say, analyze as a cyclical trend. Today, there is a lot more in the world happening, which makes this uncertain. On the other hand, people expect that by that time, we should have some more clarity. Anyway, your guess is mine.
Makes sense. Thank you.
Thank you.
Next question comes from Charles Shi from Needham & Company. Please go ahead.
Richard, I have two questions. Maybe the first one. You talked about the HVM-related hybrid bonding orders. Seems to be improving into Q3. You talked about some of the recent news out of Korea. Based on our understanding, you do have a couple of tools of the info base at two of the HVM customers. You guys have made very significant progress there. I think the burning question from me and obviously from a lot of investors is, any progress with the HVM leader in hybrid bonding? Are they still in the phase of testing mainly in Singapore? When do you think you can ship an evaluation system to the HVM leader? Thank you.
Excellent. You're absolutely right. That is a very important development to watch in this quarter. Number one, which is encouraging, is supposedly they have shared at a conference that hybrid bonding readiness is for them a must because their customers are demanding a hybrid bonded version. We know that, and we've been developing this on an ongoing basis. Traction is gaining at the others. As I said earlier, it is according to what we expect in our beautiful roadmap since about four years. All focusing on further adoption in 2025, 2026, and then having production devices available towards the end of next year and certainly in 2027. That roadmap is what we hear. The activity around that is increasing and has increased this quarter significantly. That's also in line with the publications. So Besi is part of that whole development.
The only question is how much share will we be offered? Will this be a major? Are we the process of reference or somebody else? We don't know yet. We are in a good position. The data we can achieve is very solid. The process window is increasing, so that looks promising.
Thanks, Richard. Maybe the second question, I want to ask a bit more about the mainstream business. I think your first half 2025 revenue is, I mean, yes, it is down a little bit versus first half 2024, but largely flat. Let's call it flat. You are saying hybrid bonding revenue doubled from the first half 2024 level. Obviously, we do not know the hybrid bonding revenue baseline from first half last year, but it kind of implies a very big decline in the mainstream business in first half 2025. My math is telling me it is down 20% from a year ago. If that number is right, your mainstream business is basically back to the 2019 level. Is it right, or is it that bad for the mainstream business in first half 2025? We really want to know how bad the mainstream is.
The thing is, the bad news today, maybe it will become good news tomorrow, but we really want to know. Yeah.
That is absolutely right. For certain areas, you're spot on. The industry. Look at automotive as a beautiful example. Look at our key customers in that area. The world is not growing in that area. Yeah, let's be very positive about the development in the new area. You can also say it in this way. If we would not have the successful advanced packaging AI, the numbers would look different. Yes, certainly. Is that a concern going forward? We don't think so because if you look at our margins, still the new submicron business compared to the conventional business is still much smaller. Also, the conventional business for new device development, whether it's in the lead frame world or whether it's in the substrate world, look at the flip chip success in many applications.
It's at low levels, but there are very successful new product launches, which should be increased in volume in the next round.
Maybe a reach out. Just really want to confirm. Is the mainstream really down 20% year-on-year in the first half 2025, or higher or lower?
We have not figured out those numbers in detail. It could well be somewhere around that.
Thanks.
Chinese subcontractors were very low as well. I would have to calculate to give you a precise number. As a trend, it's certainly the case.
Yeah. Thanks, Richard. That's all from me.
Thanks, Charles. Any last question?
Next question comes from Martin Marandon from ODDO BHF. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. The first one is on the mainstream business. I just wanted to know, what do you think the next upturn will look like for the mainstream business, and notably for mobile? Because in the past, I mean, we saw quite a brutal growth in the upturn, growth like 50%-60% sometimes for the mainstream business. Maybe the pace of innovation in the mobile space has slowed down a bit to some extent. At the same time, we see new edge AI functionalities, new type of chiplet packaging, etc. Do you think the next upturn for mobile will look like the previous ones?
It is also a very good question. Usually, with an extended downturn, the pattern is that the expected upturn is also lowered. We see that right now with Tech Insights numbers, which we shared, that they lowered, of course, what happened this year so far, and then they lowered the forecast for next year. That always is following that same trend. When the tide turns, you will see the opposite. You will see, on the one hand, a new product launch success, but then you also have a sort of catch-up investment round because not everything is new, and which is then unexpected. That is typically how this industry works. You have to analyze these cycles from the start to a next start through a cycle, how that forecasting develops.
It is very interesting that at the end, people start to look ever more dark to whether this is a growth industry at all. Somebody mentioned 2019. I did also myself, I think. You had a similar sort of situation, but then, yeah, we had the abnormality of a COVID. Whether this time we will have an abnormality, who knows? Historically, we have this nice slide going back to 2006. You have these movements, 50 up, 50 plus down, is what happens.
Okay. Very good. I have a quick follow-up on Silicon photonics. Whether you think for the next couple of years, let's say, that the addressable market for Besi would be bigger for flip chip or for hybrid bonding tools? Because we know that hybrid bonding will be addressing the switches, notably. Flip chip, maybe the addressable market is bigger in terms of products because it's transfer applicables, etc. What do you think would be the bigger market for Besi?
If you look at it today, you're absolutely right. Flip chip is the bigger market, and that could very well be continuing for the next one or two years. When dimensions decrease, you will certainly move to hybrid bonding specs, and that is also developing very positively for us. You have the two applications. One is the co-package optics, which is still a bit further out, and you have the connectors, where we are involved since over a decade. Thanks, Martin.
Next question comes from Tim Schultz- Melander from Rothschild & Co Redburn. Please go ahead.
Hi there. Thanks for taking my questions. I had two, please. Maybe just the first on the Gen2 hybrid bonding tool. I think there was some talk that maybe it could be a kind of September-type timeframe, so maybe just kind of six weeks away. I just really wanted to think about that timeline. Might that cause customers to delay order placement, or is the tool eval and sort of industrialization timeframe sort of long and that it does not disturb near-term demand? I had a follow-up, please.
We have always, let's say, qualified this first tool as a development tool. It will take at least nine months after shipments, probably a year before that tool has been qualified to use in production. Cannibalizing or changing is not foreseen in a year. If you look at that second generation, it has two main targets. Number one is to be able to place even preciser than we place today, so from 100 to 50 nanometers. That is also because it is named Generation 2, explained in the CM Capital Markets Day. Because of the design and also the dynamics and the balancing, etc., the machine should run with a larger process window, so a higher throughput, reducing ultimately the cost of ownership. The cost of the machine is certainly higher than that of Generation 1 Plus, the 100 nanometer.
That challenge we will face, which is a very positive challenge, hopefully, once the system is becoming in the stage where it is production qualified. We will find out, and we will share in the next quarters the progress. Shipment probably early October, whether it is late September, do not know yet, but you can see it on the floor. It is getting there. It is a real milestone in higher accuracy, and especially because of stability, higher throughput.
Awesome. That's really, really helpful. Maybe just one quick housekeeping one. I think in response to Didier's questions, you talked about euro pricing, but you also talked about FX impact on margins. Apologies if I missed it, but could you just maybe help me sort of understand maybe the magnitude or what the mechanics are for Q3, or if I just misunderstood the pricing currency? Thank you.
We are, of course, in a dollar world. The semiconductor industry, by definition, is a dollar world. Our business is in the same way. We set prices because we're a euro-based company. In euros, we offer that to customers, and there's also always this close when the exchange rate varies at time of ordering by plus minus 2.5%, an adjustment is being requested. That usually, let's say, because the swings are not that big, that usually can be organized. With the big swing we have had in negative sense for the dollar in the past four or five months, that has caused some delay in that process. Customers have a certain price for a machine in their budgets in dollars, and that price has to be increased. Since we are in a specific equipment business, these are not standard machines, only part of it.
Based on many criteria, but also competition facing exchange rate issues, that settles at some point. We have to be a bit smarter to build better machines at lower cost. That was my discussion with Didier.
Got it. That's very clear. Thank you so much.
That's very clear. Thank you so much. Thank you. That brings us to the end of the call, or is there one final question?
There are no more questions currently. We can now hand over for closing remarks.
Thank you very much. If there are any further questions, do not hesitate to contact us. Thank you for attending. Bye-bye.