Earnings Call: Q1 2021

May 6, 2021

Welcome and thank you for joining the ING's First Quarter 2021 NABR Call. I'm happy to give the floor to CEO of ING, Tev van Reisenijk. Please go ahead, sir. Thank you very much, operator, and welcome, and thank you all for joining us on the call. Here in the room with me are Teneit Putrakul, our CFO and Liana Churtain, our CRO. We will give you an update of developments and our results for the Q1 of 2021. In the Q1, our customers and colleagues We're still affected by the COVID-nineteen pandemic and the continued lockdowns. And luckily, we see vaccination programs picking up speed. If you look at customer behavior, we saw continued inflow of savings and deposits, some €8,000,000,000 this quarter as customers are still reluctant to spend and are limited So because of the ongoing lockdowns. And at the same time, in the low interest rate environment, many customers have turned to investing as an alternative for saving, which first resulted in growth in investment products, particularly in Germany and in Belgium. And to give you some color on that, over the whole of 2020, we saw an increase of about 700,000 investment accounts. Within the Q1 of this year, we saw already a growth of 250,000 accounts, so that's growing rapidly. On the lending side, we also saw growth as we were able to apply the ECB TLTRO funding to support the economy. And this resulted in a net growth of our core lending of €17,800,000,000 The pricing benefit we got from the TLTRO program helped Keep our interest income this quarter, offsetting the continuing margin pressure in the ultra low rate environment. In this quarter, we also continued to adapt our business to better serve customers and to ensure that we're focusing on the best growth opportunities for the future. 90%, nine-0 percent of interactions of retail customers with us are now through their mobile and 43% of our customers only deal with us Throude Mobile. Both numbers are still growing. And in response to this rise in the used digital channels, We announced a further change in our Dutch retail organization, reducing the number of branches, which will be converted to the ING house format and increasing the number of digital service points. We also announced that we'll discontinue retail banking activities in Austria and the Czech Republic in order to focus on markets where we can achieve better scale and profitability. We announced similar measures for a number of Wholesale Banking countries in November. Financially, our performance in the quarter was strong. As said, our interest income was up on the previous quarter supported by the benefits from TLTRO. Fee income showed a robust growth of 9% year on year, especially in Investment Products. Our Expenses remained under control, but included some incidental costs due to the restructurings that I just described. And risk costs, they were at a low level as the macroeconomic models triggered release of provisions, which were offset by management overlay to reflect the delayed Credit losses that we expect due to the pandemic. And overall, this led to a pretax result of almost €1,500,000,000 And a net result of just over €1,000,000,000 with our capital ratio remaining at a strong 15.5%. With that, we are happy to take your questions now. First question is from Eva Rohjes, Finishel Dagblad. Go ahead please. Good morning. I had some questions about The 1st in loan growth in February March, especially in the Netherlands. Can you give some more detail on what went on there? How did you close those deals? How clear was the competition? And what kind of companies V2 plus deals with? And what was the effect on Margin pressure in those months. Right. Thank you, Eeva. The loan growth came predominantly from larger clients, Both in the Netherlands, but also in countries like Germany and France and elsewhere in Europe. That was at least a TLTRO eligible loan growth. Most of that was with what we call investment grade companies, so BBB or higher. So 90% of the loan growth came from these type of companies. And we typically price these loans that's In line with the credit standing of these companies, and that's what we also did now. And Clearly, when 2020 ended and 2021 started, increasingly, companies are looking at making investments again. And given the fact that we have been in touch with them already since the start of the crisis, that also helped them and helped us to actually discuss potential financing for them in the wake of potential future investments, and that's what we were able to do. So you actively approach them to see if they were interested in taking those moments. Yes. I mean, typically, we always contact our clients or we work with our clients to see what our We make presentations to them, see what our capital needs are given their investment plans. Sometimes clients contact us when there is a particular investment need, so it comes from both sides. Okay. And can you say a little bit more about how did you experience the competition? Because you had to meet the Hiro, threshold, and the quality benefits. Other banks had the same issue. So Emma, I assume that it has Who's really busy on the market for financing those companies in the last month. Yes. Don't know about that. I mean, to be honest, I haven't really looked at whether other banks what other banks exactly did in terms of their financing. I mean, yes, we have a very large franchise, and that also means that we have a lot of client contacts. By the way, we had those client contacts already on a weekly basis since March 2020 when the corona pandemic started, also to see how our clients were doing and how we could help them. So we are in regular contact with them already on a weekly or biweekly basis. So I'm sure that especially with large companies, They're also in conversation with other banks, but that's something that you would need to ask the other banks how they fared. Last question on this topic. Sorry, Eva, can you speak up a little bit, Jorgen? Okay. Sorry. Last question on this topic. Because you said it's mostly Large companies, can you say something about the sectors where you see demand picking up? Yes. That was very broad. So it was I cannot point at a particular sector in which we extended those loans. Outside of TLTRO, if you look at the broader business side and the larger companies, Then we got more loan growth in Asia and the Americas because already their production volumes increased. In China, for example, it up already in the Q3 of 2020. In the U. S, you see also an increase in GDP as of earlier this year, also with The Biden administration coming in and the support that they give. But if you look at TLTRO, the iron ore point is a particular sector in which that happens. Next question is from Ruben Erck from Tailor Gras. Go ahead please. Hello, good morning. And I'm glad I wasn't the first one asking a question today. Well, we were expecting it to move in, and I lost it a bit. Yes. So expect the unexpected, Stephen. My question was about growth in investment projects. You said it's mostly Germany and Belgium. Could you say if that is specifically because of the low interest rate that people with saving accounts started to invest. And can you also shed some light about the situation in the Netherlands? So you see that movement as well. Yes. Thank you. Yes, I mean, Clearly, it will likely be the case that more people start to invest With the low interest rate environment, I think it's good that people build up a buffer. They can do that through savings, But people also look at the returns that they're making, so that means that they may also well look at investments. For us, I think that we did develop our offerings gradually over the years. We come an environment whereby we have in a number of markets, we had a limited number of products, and we increased them over time, including an investments app We launched also in Germany last year, and that's then we also rolled out in other markets, and that helps In a digital manner for people also to make their investments through that app. In the Netherlands, I mean, what we at least see is that people are Our retail clients compared to other countries are a bit less prone to make investments. Also here, we saw an increase In the number of investment accounts opened, last year, we opened in a Netherlands of 40,000 accounts. This year, the Q1 was 16,000, but it is more benign than in a number of other countries in which we are active. Okay. Some other questions. If you look at the credit losses or the loan provisions, excuse me, you see, of course, It's less than it was a year ago. Only a negative loan position in the Netherlands stood out at the Consumer Bank. Would you say that Dutch consumers are more or less okay at this moment? And how is that other countries? And can you say also something about situation you see at the wholesale bank? I will pass that question on to Lilian, if that's okay. Good morning. Yes, we have seen lower provisions 1st quarter, as you noticed, and yes, we see a quite confident situation as well in the Netherlands as in the rest of the world. There were no significant individual cases neither in Wholesale Banking nor collective provisionings in Netherlands, so we feel confident about the quality of the portfolio. Is it I mean, you have to take these predictions in advance. So these are your expectations you see for the coming quarters? Based on IFRS, you take the provisions on realistic expectations. It is true that we have taken certain management overlays reflecting Uncertainties that are still ahead of us. Okay. And if you say you have confidence in Netherlands and the rest of the world, The expectation is crisis would be over at the end of the summer. That's a very difficult question. And I think this is a crisis we haven't seen before, neither in the depth nor in the shape. We do expect that the second half of the year probably will bring some hiccups in some I've seen some hard heater industry, but we do consider us being prepared to take those and in line with our guidance. Thank you so much. Thank you. Next question is from Mr. Koen Hagen from Forsgren. Go ahead please. Good morning. Hello. I have two questions. The first is about TLTRO. My question is, would you Say that ING lends more money to companies because of this cheap funding? Or is it about the same because demand is And of this, it's just cheaper funding. Sorry, did you have more questions? Or what is it, Koen? I can ask this other question right away also, but it's about the negative interest rates. I was wondering what is your opinion about these proposals of, For example, the consummante bond, some politicians to prohibit negative interest rates and then they often point to Belgium as an example. That's the other question. Okay. On the first one, TLTRO, I think it's a mixed bag. So on the one hand, it's an increase in investments that companies are starting to make. And if you're a larger company, then these amounts get big quite quick. And also, it's a matter of at least Cheaper funding costs, at least for a part of our lending book based on the TLTRO benefit that we have been receiving from the ECB. So it is a combination. Talking about negative interest rates. Yes, I mean, I think what we see is that interest rates are Very low across the globe. And in Europe or the Eurozone, they are negative. And that does have an impact On the business model of banks such as ING, it also means that we take various actions and to also lower the interest rate for the savers. And in some cases, we charge negative interest rates. And in the end, every service requires a price. If a client is buying or Rents to put his or her money, and that also costs money. And we also make costs to for our clients to enable to get their money safely and securely. Now that's why we are having charged negative interest rates for savings or deposits over certain amounts in various countries, and the cases are different for each country depending on the market circumstances. In the Netherlands, currently, there is a sort of a border at €100,000 I think that the minister said the Minister of Finance said that he would Find it unwanted, I believe, if the ordinary depositor or saver will be confronted with levying negative interest over the savings amounts. We do understand that and we also understand that clients require a buffer for unexpected costs or expenses that clients would need to make. And then the question is, okay, what is an ordinary deposit or ordinary saver. And if you look at figures from the CBS or also the NIBIT, Dan, these points that average amounts that are below €100,000 but for us And having said that, in the Netherlands, we have indicated and we have announced that as per the 1st July, We charge negative interest rates over an amount of €1,000 and that actually means that close to 89% of our clients will not be touched by The question about thank you for this answer. The question about prohibiting this by law Because I am also asking this because ING is the dominant player in both the Netherlands and Belgium, so you have experiences with both ways actually. In Belgium, by the way, that depends on the type Also there, we charge negative interest rates over €250,000 So it's not the case that it is prohibited overall. It is prohibited on Specific particular accounts. Yes. Look, like I said, I think that in the end, And that goes for all type of businesses, not banks only. If you need to provide a service for a negative Interest rates or a negative margin over the longer term that's unsustainable, but we clearly take in mind the buffers that people need to hold To save. And then the question is what a normal buffer should be. And for now, we have said that we stick to the €100,000 Yes, yes. So would you say that if because you're telling that it just costs money for banks, So if they can't compensate that through negative interest rates, it would have to be compensated through, for example, fees for having a banking account. Well, what we do see is that we, as a bank, We are relatively dependent on interest rates. Over 3 quarters of our revenue comes from interest rate related products. And it does mean that we need to diversify our business models to also provide other services for which we can ask for commissions Beyond the interest rate products that we provide to our clients, and that's what we're doing. We're broadening our service scope, and that has also led, in our case, during increase in fees, amongst others, due to the increased amount of investment products. Thank you. Our next question is from Mr. Ruben on the data graph. Go ahead. Hello again. Follow-up question on the last. If you say that 89% of your customers in the Netherlands Being affected by the negative interest rates, you would say in what way does that 2% would help? Could you shed some light on that? Yes. I mean, this conversation has focused on the our retail clients, so private individuals, But we also do charge negative interest rates to our larger clients, for example, in Wholesale Banking. We have been doing this already for a longer period of time, And that's more substantive. Okay. I mean, what way does that It evens the pain over the last period. It doesn't. So no, he doesn't. So and that's well understood. So we have a role to play, of With our clients, that's why we're careful with our retail clients. But we have over €400,000,000,000 in deposits. The interest that we pay on that is approximately €1,500,000,000 And the measures that we've taken in all countries, What we announced for our retail clients would amount to €200,000,000 in this year. So That's why you see pressure on the net interest income for banks all across the board. To take measures in cutting down costs, left some countries with the retail bank where growth It's difficult. I saw an investment presentation on a slide, the amount of offices, which went from $283,000,000 in 2016 to $290,000,000 in 2020. Does that help? And do you expect that this is it for the coming years? Or in the way the digital banking grows and grows during the long term, we would expect that on a short amount of time, there will be more to do. Yes. I think that when you make a reference to the presentation, you point at the slide on Poland where we decreased over the past 4 years our With approximately 25 percent to €289,000,000 That was in Poland. Yes. It was in Poland. No, in the Netherlands, I believe we go from 128,000,000 to 59 by July 2022. Yes, and in the end, it depends on The customer behavior. So we do see a change in customer behavior. That's, of course, also accelerated by COVID. If we look at the number of clients that use our mobile only service, that was 40% end of last year and now within 1 quarter has already grown to 43. If you look at the total number of interactions, the last year, end of year was 87, is now already 90. So you see how quickly this And that means that we are adjusting also our service to the needs of our clients. Therefore, you do see A reduction in branches, but we will always do that in line with the service levels and keep our service levels up for our clients. And we also provide That also that goes for this country, service points as well as call opportunity or village opportunity because we do see and continue to see There is sometimes a need for more personal interaction, and that's what we want to cater for. 2 more questions, if I may. I hear you also say this morning that you're still looking at the return on equity to 10% to 12%, but isn't even possible if you see that the interest margin goes lower again? It's 1.64%, is that correct? That's 1.46%. Yes. But yes, look, I mean, there is pressure on the interest So what's there we if you look at the levers that we can pull that's on the revenue, on the cost and on the capital side. On the revenue side, it means that if we get back to more normal economic activity, that will also mean that across the board, That should help loan growth to come back. We've seen until 2019, we grew with 3% to 4% loan growth on average during that period. I'm not making a forecast, but I can imagine that there is some pent up demand, so demand will catch up initially. But with growing GDP, We would also see loan growth coming back. That's the first lever that we pull. And if you look at the Netherlands, the forecast for this year we have is that the GDP will grow With 3.2%. I know that the Q1 was still negative. And for 2022, it's 2.9%. The second lever we pull It's that where possible and where reasonable, we will also charge negative interest rate. And of course, we are diversifying our business model, and that's what you see especially in the fee income or the commission income Edel grew with 9% year over year or 11% quarter by quarter, and that's a trajectory 5% to 10% this year of growth in Fee income that we're comfortable with. And the next lever is the cost. I think that we have developed quite a number of digital building blocks over the years We can reuse, and we will do that and increasingly do that in the next coming years, and that should give us scale benefit. And you see that with the 1 app rollout in the Netherlands and Belgium, it's now also being rolled out in Germany. It will be then thereafter be rolled out in other countries as well, and that basically means that you do not need to develop that as a country or a business line yourself, and that will, in the end, give the skill benefit That will also help our costs. And in that sense, digitalization and especially end to end digitalization but also across countries is important. And the last one It's our capital. Our capital, Sunnli sorry, Sunnli currently stands at 15.5%. It wasn't quite sudden, although it went quite quick. But as 3% above, The capital that we would like to hold because we believe that 12.5% is sufficient. Now you all are aware of the dividend restrictions that we are currently under. Based on the latest information of the ECB, those limitations would be lifted by September in this year. We remain hopeful that, that will be the case, but it, of course, also depends on The economic recovery, which we fully understand, and that is also then a means for us to gradually move towards the 12.5%, and it will also help in increasing our return. So we're still confident that we make that, but it will require a number of steps and it will require a couple of years. Final question. In the Netherlands, 2 of the 3 largest banks, There are investigations against formal CEOs. How do you look at that? And do you still feel comfortable leading a large bank knowing this is a possibility for the future. Well, Luc, I mean, if I wasn't, I wouldn't be sitting here. But one thing is clear that if someone is under investigation or a suspect, well, Justify or not. That is, of course, very sad for everybody involved. And this is the case for everybody in such a situation, whether you're working in a bank or somewhere else. If you ask me about the case specifics, I have to be careful because every case is different. It's very hard to judge that from the other side. That's not for me to say. When I look at our attractiveness as an employer, I think that many factors play a role here, and I think that's especially our digital nature, our purpose client led Environments that we have, our international demeanor that we have as a company are very attractive for people to work with. And if I look around me With a tie, CFO in Croatian, CRO, I think that proves the point. So I think ING remains a very attractive and important for everybody, including myself. Okay. Thanks so much. Next question is from Eva Royers, Finisher Dagblad. Go ahead please. Yes. I have one more question about the CLTRO team. During the analyst presentation, you named some numbers, How much do you expect to benefit the coming quarters? But I missed the exact number. So I was hoping you can Naindos again. And then a question about the management over Lejertur. I see a lot of banks doing that. And that makes me question, how sound is the current IFRS 9 system? If banks have to be taking these overlays. Well, you don't want me to gang up against accountants, do you? But let me answer the first question and then Liliana can answer the second question. So the amount for the next five quarters It will be approximately €75,000,000 per quarter. And I have to be a bit more specific. So under this TLTRO 3 scheme, we have one more quarter to go. But because we met the milestone as per end of March, We basically now booked 3 quarters, I. E, from July last year until March this year, we now booked in one goal. That is the €233,000,000 and we'll book approximately €75,000,000 remaining in the Q2 of this year. And then there's a second phase of TLTRO. They take a that second phase uses a different start and end points, and the start point will then be October 2020 until December 2021. And there, we have said That we take a different position now compared to what we did previously because previously, we were less confident that we would make it. Where we currently stand, we are more confident that we will make it, and therefore, we will unlikely book it only at the end. We will more likely book it quarter by quarter, and that would then mean that for the next 4 quarters thereafter, so The 3rd, the 4th and then the first and the second in 'twenty two, we would again book €75,000,000 in each quarter for the remaining 4 quarters. So in short, Next five quarters, euros 75,000,000 per quarter. Okay. And then the second question goes to Liliana. And good morning. On the management overlays, yes, correctly, everything we do is aligned and signed off with our auditors, clearly. And the reasons why, in this case, management overlays are allowed, not just to us but to the whole industry, is the fact that the models cannot recognize the happenings in this pandemic on the fact that there is as well government support that hasn't been seen in the past. So actually models are just not able realistically to accept what is the risk profile. In order to remain prudent, it is clearly under the supervision of the auditors agreed to take such overlays. Okay. And then one more question about that topic. There are specific models that you have to use to determine how high your positions are. But how much freedom do you have to decide how high the overlay is going to be? How much freedom do the Deutsche Bank have? Clearly, it is all based on the argumented methodology, which takes into account observations and takes into account data that we have witnessed so far. So it's the question of how do we show that what we think is going to be needed in the next quarters is really realistic on the data that we see. And as I said, it's Always discussed and aligned with the auditors. Okay. Then one more question for Stephen. Would you say the pressure on NII is the thing that concerns you most as the CEO of the bank. Well, it concerns me most. I mean, clearly, It is a challenge for us and other financial institutions who are dependent For a large extent on interest income, we do see the interest being negative in Europe now On the short term and also in the long term, so if you look at the interest rate curves, these remain negative for also the medium term and the long term rates. Yes. And that is impacting the banks. So that means that we need to adjust our business model to cater for that. So that indeed keeps you busy. Yes. I think, Tabetha, but if I look at your numbers. They're actually quite strong, but still the exchange Investors are not buying ING right now. So I think it must be the NII that concerns them most. And that's why I'm wondering if this also the main topic Well, The main topics in ING are, 1, how do we continue to help our clients and stay prudent in the way that we are dealing with our clients. So that's the first topic. So how do we deal with the corona pandemic from a client point of view, but also from an employee point of view. And then the second topic is how do we built our business model into a more sustainable business model, and we do that by further diversifying, Continuously look at where we best allocate our capital and I point to the decisions that we've taken in the Czech Republic and Austria. 1st, further digitalization because that helps both building better customer journeys, a better employees or colleague experience, But also it will help our cost to serve and will also help us to be compliant by design. I call it the 4 Cs, colleagues, clients, cost to serve and compliance. And then how do we further extend our ESG profile, both from the way that we measure our own portfolios, but also how we help clients with that because that is a big Problem for societies at large and that transition we're in the midst of and we really want to be part of that. Okay. Thank you. Next question is from Koen Hagen from Forskamp. Go ahead please. Thank you. I have one more question. Earlier This year, it was with Q4. You warned for a cliff effect when state support for companies would end. Do you think the risk of this since then decreased or increased? I don't know. I mean, look, maybe if you look at businesses And even with the second lockdowns, you can see that although the lockdowns were stricter Mid December than in March of last year's with retail stores that were forced to close down, the economic consequences so far were less profound. And why do I say that? Because there were a number of businesses that could adjust their business models, just name restaurants who were switching to home deliveries And they got also their distribution channels for online shopping better in order. And this also in turn boosted Investment in, for example, transport equipment for online consumer spending. Now then you saw consumers. They spend more online, so they bought more online and have substituted service consumption for the purchase of goods. And there's also a bit less uncertainty here because the vaccine programs really are kicking in. They are making progress. And that therefore means that You already see that there's higher investments being made than during the first lockdowns. And we do not only see that from our loans, but we also see that from Manufacturing, because manufacturing is holding up quite well with stronger foreign demands than in the spring of 2020. And as you know, Netherlands is a big world trade country and that already rebounded. So service exports remain weak. Goods exports are strong and 5% higher than the pre COVID peak, and that's despite the Brexit results. So there are some positive signs and that so that's what I want to mention. Now the flip side is that Even though that we have now been for 9 months in various lockdowns or in a subdued economic environment, We still do not see a big fallout in companies or clients that are defaulting, I. E, that are no longer being able to pay. And that is, of course, has to do with all the measures that have been taken by the governments and as well as the payment void days by the banks. So what we really need to do is to look at what will happen after we get out of these lockdowns, after economic activity returns to normal, but also need to see what happens to these 8 programs. And there is a bit of a concern that if these 8 programs suddenly stop, That would mean there is some catch up costs that these companies need to make because suddenly they need to pay taxes, suddenly they need to pay salaries, Certainly, all the fiscal stimulus are then gone, while only gradually their revenues will recover. And then the question is, Do these companies have enough working capital? Do they have enough buffer to sustain that certain shift? And that's why I advocate that these measures are only built down gradually rather than too abruptly. Okay. So that's the big risk. That is a potential concern that could cause a cliff effect. Yes, yes. And where in time would Place that cliff effect with the knowledge we have now. Is it still like in the end of the summer or autumn or maybe later? Look, I mean, what I would look at is when economic activity gets back to near normal levels that we expect in the course of the Q3 at this point. And then we would need to see, okay, what does it Actually mean for the economic activity and the strength of these businesses, and I think that's what we need to take into account when building these measures. Yes. Thank you. That's very clear. Thank you. Next question is from Mr. Mr. Dokblad. Go ahead. Good morning, all. I have 2 Small questions. One was about the negative interest rates. I was wondering, are you you were talking about increased fee income. I was wondering if that's also the case with the retail clients. You see, of course, the challenger banks who are charging €8 a month for like a bank account. Wouldn't that be a fairly easy solution to level out the negative interest rates? Yes. I mean, we are charging for services that we provide to our clients. In the past, where we came from is that we had a number of these challenger banks only savings accounts. Well, I don't need to explain to you what revenue that we'll be making given the negative interest rate environment. So it means that you need to charge the cost that you make in another way or shape so that we do indeed charge for our daily banking services increasingly also in other countries. And at the same time, we try to develop better services and other services to our clients who are broadening the service to our clients for which if there is a good service, we can charge for that. Sure. Okay. Another question I had, you said something about the 1 app Strategy, of course, the project Maggie is stopped. You were now talking about starting out in Germany and rolling out in other countries. What's the difference between this project and the Mackie projects. I think that what you saw in the Maggie project is that In a number of those IT projects that we embarked upon, we tried to do too much At the same time, also including integrating our back offices, and we call that our core banks. At least in retail, you call that core banks. And that has those are the elements that includes all the client and product information. And for and that is something that takes many years and is very complicated from an IT point of view to do. And so when you're in a changing environment, such as we came in as a result of COVID, you basically Avedi said I want to refocus on a shorter period of time with more execution certainty when integrating certain elements. So we've stopped Maggie to step away from integrating the middle or the back end of our systems and focus more on step by step integration, so rolling out an app or rolling out a Services journey, in a service journey, you can look at that. If you look at your app, you say, okay, make a payment, that is a service journey. And to develop that, when we have developed it, rolled out gradually country by country by country. Then the cycles are shorter, but the execution certainty is higher with lower investment, and that is what I've chosen. Excuse uncertainty is higher with lower investment, and that is what I have chosen. Okay, clear. Thank you. Daniela. I'm sorry. One more question or no more question? No more questions. No more questions. Okay. I misheard you, I'm sorry. Okay. Let me then wrap up this call. The Q1 of 'twenty one showed a strong performance with a net profit of just over €1,000,000,000 The result was driven by higher interest income on the back of the TLTRO program, which offsets the ongoing margin pressure. At the same time, we saw a robust growth of fee income of 9% year on year driven by investment products. Lending. That grew with about EUR 18,000,000,000 also increased by EUR 8,000,000,000 as we saw the effects of the pandemic continue. Risk costs remained low as the macroeconomic effects were offset by overlays for the expected delay in credit losses due to the pandemic. And with that, we leave you for now. If you have any further questions, all of you know very well how to contact our media team. And otherwise, we will for sure speak soon, but at least in the next quarter. Thank you very much.