Q1 21/22

Jul 20, 2021

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q1 FY 'twenty two Results Conference Call for Control Print Limited, hosted by Asian Market Securities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Matilya from Asian Market Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Thanks, Manika. Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, and welcome all to the ControlPaint Limited First Quarter FY 'twenty two Earnings Conference Call hosted by Asian Market Securities. From the management side, we have with us Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director Mr. Rahul Khetri, CFO. I now hand the conference to Rahul for his opening remarks, post which we shall open the floor for question and answer. Over to you, Rahul. Thank you very much, Tarun. Welcome everyone to the Q1 FY 2020 earnings conference call of Control Print. We appreciate your taking out time from a busy schedule to attend the call. Hope you and your loved ones are safe and healthy. Mr. Shiva Cabra, Joint Managing Director, joins me on this call. Let me start with a brief and controlled print followed by specific analysis of the financials of the current quarter and end with the Q and A session. The detailed presentation has already been put up on our website as well as the investor presentation notification sent to the exchanges. For those who are probably reviewing the company for the first time, Control Print is in the niche coding and marketing segment, which is an oligopolistic market with 4 major players, 3 of whom are MNCs and Control Print is the only make in India manufacturer. This gives us an advantage to sell our products locally and compete strongly with the other multinational players. We are the only integrated player with capacity to manufacture both printer as well as consumables in India, giving us an advantage to share the benefit with our customers. This also gives confidence to the customers for long term partnership with Control Print. We have our manufacturing facilities in Nalaga in the state of Himachal Pradesh for the manufacturing of the printers and in Guwahati in the state of Assam for the manufacturing of consumables. Both the manufacturing locations are state of the art facility to produce good quality products. All our consumables are manufactured in the Guwahati plant, and in addition to this, we have also started manufacturing some printers in that location. We have a strong sales and service team of 3.50 plus engineers across our 11 plus branches, which gives us the advantage to service our customers efficiently and timely since after sales service is very critical to ensure that the production lines of our customers continue to function continuously, thereby maintaining customer satisfaction. The 11 plus branches across North, South, East, West and Central India gives us an advantage to be in direct contact with all our customers in a timely manner since our products are critical to their production process. Post sales of printers, there is a continuous demand for consumables over the life of the printer, which typically lasts for 5 to 7 years depending on operating conditions. We have our complete attention on our customers' requirement to ensure that production is never affected and service requests are immediately attended, thereby giving our customers confidence, gaining our customers confidence. We have an end to end SAP ERP system set up, which ensures maximum transparency in accounting, sales and after sales service as well as total control from raw material planning to ordering of the receivable collection and is integrated with our CRM system, which gives the confidence to the team, the customers as well as our auditors and investors. We have a widespread customer base catering to multiple industries like pipes and cables, metal, automotive, food and beverages, FMCG, pharma, and we continuously endeavor to customize our products to reach out to other industries to increase our installed base. We have the entire range of products in our portfolio to meet the coding and marketing requirement of the industry. The details are elaborated in our company segmentation. As of today, the company has an installed base of 14,000 plus printers across industries, which enables the sale of consumables across the life cycle of the printer. We are very confident that we have the best in class product to meet the requirements of most of the substrates, which gives an additional advantage to the customers to do business with ControlSense. With a strong foundation and 5 pillars, that is man, machine, material, technology and finance, well established to augment our business plan, we are continuously striving for greater heights. Let me give a brief analysis of the financials of quarter 1 for the financial year 'twenty one 'twenty two. The manufacturing activities in the last quarter of FY 'twenty that is the previous quarter, were very strong, and most of their industries were pushing the productions to make up the time lost due to the impact of the pandemic. The momentum continued in the month of March April 21, but the eruption of the 2nd wave of COVID once again forced almost all the states to announce lockdowns and restrictions in activities. This has once again affected our economy as a whole and weakened the demand cycle. The production in most of the industries was curtailed in the month of May, and though the lockdown was eased in the month of June, the recovery in production has been slower than expected. In our assessment, the worry about the 3rd wave of COVID is looming and various industries are producing cautiously. These are extraordinary situations when the strength of the company is tested, and we can assure you that Control Print is geared up for any challenge. We are financially stable and robust, and we'll continue to perform in spite of the unforeseen challenges. This stability of control trend has been reaffirmed by credit rating agency, CRISIL, with an A rating after considering the short and the medium term impact of the COVID pandemic. Our investors can maintain their belief on the company's management for an optimistic future. This quarter, we achieved revenue above INR 50 crores for the 4th consecutive quarter, which makes it sustainable in the long run. We are confident that revenue and profitability levels will increase as the economy stabilizes post the pandemic. We delivered a revenue of INR54.4 crores in this quarter in spite of the slowdown due to the 2nd wave of COVID. We are not making any year on year comparison as the Q1 of the previous year was the peak for the 1st wave of COVID and more severely affected than the current quarter. Profit before exceptional items is INR8.69 crores, which was lower than the previous sequential quarter, mostly due to lower sales of consumables as the industrial production was restricted. With the recovery in the industrial production, the consumables revenue will also increase, which will boost the profitability. The company remains with profit after tax at 21.5 percent and EBITDA at 22.6 percent, with scope of improvement due to better product mix and news triggering economies of scale. We shall continue to maintain we should continue to maintain EBITDA margins north of 24% on a long term sustainable basis. Let me brief you on the performance of various divisions, products and business segments. Printers had a positive demand in spite of a challenging environment, though the installations were delayed. The installed the installed base will drive the business in the coming quarter. The company continues to dominate the wood and the pipe sector, and FMCG is picking up. The flagship division CIG witnessed positive demand and will remain strong over the coming quarters. The demand was mainly due to some of the industries where we have a stronghold like pipes, cable, steel, food, FMCG, beverages and it was also encouraging to see growth in some of the upcoming sectors like dairy, pharma, paints, etcetera. New product launches of TIJ TTO HiRise are very bullish with some good installations, and we are confident they will continue to add value to the company's business plan. We have dedicated managers and teams to drive these verticals with focus on dairy, beverages, biscuits, frozen food, ready to eat, pharma, packaging, plywood, lubricants, carton coating, etcetera. These new products should continue to generate traction during these challenging times, which builds confidence on the potential of these products in the coming years. Laser filter business is growing steadily with positive response from the customers and new opportunities expected in the coming quarters. The face mask division will contribute to the company's revenue and the second wave of COVID has created additional demand for the mask. The company has strong cash flows, and this has helped us reward the shareholders with the final dividend of 4.5 per share, which was approved in yesterday's AGM, thereby taking the total dividend to 8.5 per share for the financial year 2021. ControlPay retains its position in the list of top 1,000 companies in the stock exchange by market cap on the national stock exchange. While the pandemic has impacted the economy as a whole, we hope with the increase in the vaccination population, the worst is behind us and with return to normalcy over the next few months, we hope for similar trend of growth trajectory. Fundamentally, the company remains strong, and we are focused on our plan and strategy, and we are confident of the growth potential to deliver positive results. The floor is now open for questions. Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. The first question is from the line of Shwicksh Jain from A and S Wealth. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you for giving this opportunity. So I'm pretty new to this company. So some of the questions may be repetitive of the questions may have been asked in the previous call. So please apologize for that. But my first question is, sir, if you could throw some light on the industry as to how big the industry is globally and particularly in India? And how do you see the industry going ahead? And also, if you could throw some light as to who are the key players? How big is the unorganized sector in this? And what is our market share for this? Shriral, you want to take that question or you want to take it? Shriral, you take that. Yes. So regarding the industry size, in India, the it's a 4 player market essentially. There are 3 foreign subsidiaries of 3 global companies that compete along with us. And our between the 4 of us approximately the revenue size about between INR10.50 to INR 1100 crores. The unorganized market would be another 25%, 30% of the overall markets, maybe INR1500 crores would be the size of the overall market in India as of right now. And worldwide, it's just depending on how you define it, it could be between about $4,700,000,000 to $7,000,000,000 So it depends on which products include exactly in that. So that was the first part of your question. Then you had asked something about the evolution. So if you can just repeat it because Yes. So how do you see the market shaping up in India? Because 1500 crores is still a very small market, right? I mean, and for us, how do you see in terms of the export opportunity? And then what is our market share in the and how big okay. So you want to be unorganized. So if you could just throw the light as to how do we see the industry shaping up? Because I think looking at it, Crozz is still a very small market size, right? So frankly, like the market, of course, for the last one and a half years has been quite stagnant, to be honest, because of the whole pandemic. So we are an indirect market, so it really depends on manufacturing growth. So if you look at China, for example, they are like as a market, they're more than a 10,000 crores. So like they're a pretty big part of the market because they have a lot of manufacturing there. Whereas India so till the GDP reaches per capita reaches about $5,000 normally the organized segment of the market increases faster than the unorganized segments, organized packaging. So there's a sort of trend that people used to buy sugar in gunny bags, now they buy it in packets. People used to buy make chips from the local bakery, now they buy it from Frito Lay's or packaged chips. So the packaged consumer goods sector normally grows faster than the overall market. And the same thing is there for the industrial side. So you sort of make bulk steel before, then you start making value added products, cables, wires, those types of things. And they all require more printing. So as GDP per capita goes to about $5,000 maybe $5,000 $6,000 per capita, what our observation from other countries being that the industry growth is about twice that of GDP growth. It's also slightly difficult to predict because in India, it's the manufacturing growth has been a bit weak over the last few years. So it's also going to depend not on overall GDP growth because of course if TCS or Infosys and all are driving India's GDP, it doesn't really benefit us particularly. But if it's more broad based, it's more manufacturing led, then obviously the market should grow about twice the pace of GDP. That's the normal way that the market extrapolates to you at about $5,000 to $6,000 per capita. After that, it reaches about $10,000 per capita, it was about 1.5x GDP growth. And then beyond that point, it's not really about volume growth, it's more about premiumization. So people will go from regular chocolate to like dark chocolate to like single origin dark chocolate. So the total volume you're consuming of products is going up quite slowly then. So then it sort of slows down and goes along with GDP at about $10,000 or $12,000 per capita. So that's sort of where the market is. So if you see stuff like Thailand or Indonesia on a per capita GD per capita basis, their consumption or their the size of the market is much bigger than ours China, they're at about $8,000 to $12,000 range per capita. Indonesia will be about $4,000 or $5,000 but it's significantly it's almost half the size of the Indian market, if not more, even though it's not that big of a country. So that's sort of where the market goes. But I mean, in the end, it's going to depend on the manufacturing growth within India indirectly because Do we see export opportunities for us? So we have started in Bangladesh, we've been operating for a few years and in Sri Lanka also and even in Nepal also sometimes. So we're not focused beyond this area. We're actually looking quite actively at Africa and some other things, but then because of the pandemic, of course, everything's sort of gone silent in all honesty. So we've not again, because we can't travel and we can't do anything, it's not the main area. We do have a strong market in India. So obviously, for us, this is the price right now because this is where the market is growing. We are very well established. And so I'll be honest, like there's also like a certain amount of management bandwidth and energy we have. It's not really about capital right now. It's not really about the products. So if we can do it without really making a huge investment in terms of manpower and diverting our attention, then we will surely focus on the export market more. But the main focus is to grow our business in India and the South Asian countries first, and that's the primary focus for us right now. Okay. Okay. So, can I ask one more question? Just because of the limited amount of management bandwidth, like to be honest. Right. Right. So can I ask one more question and I'll join back in the queue, is that okay? I mean, yes, I'll stop to the moderator so I can see. Ma'am, I would request you to rejoin the queue for follow-up questions. Okay. Okay. I'll join back. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Divanshu Sampat from YET Securities. Please go ahead. Good afternoon, sir. Hi, Divanshu. Hi. So I had a few questions. One is, I just wanted to check that the share of credit goods and sales has been on the rise. So I presume these are the non CIGA printers that we are selling. So is there any plan to start manufacturing these? Or are we going to continue the same way that we are operating right now? So, Devanshu, we actually manufacture all the non CIG printers ourselves. We pretty much we manufacture the entire product range. Sometimes we sell a lot of accessories, software, other bits, conveyors and other things that go with our printer. So it's not just the printer, but it's some people want sometimes a full system for traceability or sometimes they want there's some other equipment that goes along with the print or like sensors, other things. So those all come as part of our dated goods. So that would be it. And sometimes when we launch new models, just in the beginning when the volumes are low, we import those models. So it's I mean, it could have gone up or down, but I don't see it being a major factor. Rahul, you want to revert back on this? Yes, Devanshu. Mostly, we are manufacturing most of our printers, unless it's a special printer to customers. No, the reason I'm asking because the share of your purchase of stock in trailers moved up quite a bit in the last 3, 4 years. So I was wondering. Yes, those could be some unique filters. Okay. And another point is your 40% of your cost of material consumed is imported, which has been on the rise from roughly around 18% in FY 'thirteen, gradually isn't on the rise, it comes about 40%. I presume this will largely be consumables. So It will need to be print or equipment or components for equipment. Okay. Okay. Yes. Basically, the electronics, Divanshu, which are high valued, and that's what we're increasing with. There is a shortage of chips and other things in the market. So that's why it slightly increased compared to the previous year. I'm not comparing it to 2013 because but if you compare it to the previous year, it will increase by a few percentage of you. And that's mostly because of shortages in the market. Yes. I just want to point it out. What happened was also I just want to point out something. Earlier on, when we were importing certain goods, some of the suppliers of ours, like say, the suppliers for the pumps or the electronics, they had their own distributors in India also and we used to purchase through their distributors. And what happened was so it's actually the same good, but we are buying it from the local partner of whoever from, say, AMD or whatever, for example, we're buying from AMD in here. And as our volumes increased, we found it more cost efficient and better to just import it directly rather than pay the additional overhead costs of getting it through the Indian distributor or subsidiary or whatever arrangement they had out here. And so we have shifted a lot of the purchase of goods and as they're quite low value items, we now prefer to import them directly. So it's not fundamentally changed if you from a level that it was still imported then, but it was being routed as a direct purchase in India. But now we're purchasing it directly from the supplier. So that's where the so that could change up the numbers, but fundamentally, it hasn't actually changed. Okay, okay. And just coming to your depreciation for the quarter, from what I remember you saying earlier that we have the investment that we did for the mask business, we were and we thought that the light will be longer, so depreciation should be lower. But again, it moved up. So can you throw some light on this, please? So I did mention that the depreciation will be in the range of will be similar to the whole year. So actually don't compare it to Q4 because in Q4 it had an impact of the previous quarter's depreciation getting immediate. But if you compare it to the full year's depreciation of INR 12 crores, then this quarter about INR 3, INR 3.3 should be fine. So I think on a yearly basis, the INR 12 to 13 crores is what we should assume the best efficiency, Gilemin. Don't compare it to previous quarters. So this run basically this run 3 crores, 3.5 crores should remain done. Yes. 12 crores to 13 crores for the year, so maybe 3.5 crores for the quarter is what should be. Q4 was actually lower. It was not because of some previous quarter results. And then just last question from my side. Can you tell me what the planned CapEx is for this year? And also what will be INR 7.3 crores CWIT as of 31st March? If you can close and widen that too? Yes. So for the current year and the next year, we don't foresee any major CapEx beyond whatever is maintained in beyond whatever is maintained and maybe INR 3 crores to INR 5 crores this year and the next year. So I think we've mentioned it before, but I think we have pretty good to go to be about INR 300 crores to INR 350 crores. So we don't need anything. And fundamentally, we did a debottlenecking in our Nala Ghat factory. It was actually stuck up because of COVID. But so we've expanded that factory so that because we had some we need to debottleneck our printer production capacity. So that's where we spent some money, a few crores on that. So, Vedanshu, that's what capitalized as of 30th June, the 7 crores that you're seeing at CWF. The INR 7 crores, what's the debottlenecking? Yes. For the Nalagar facility that Krishn was talking about. Okay. And that got capitalized in 30th on 30th. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. All the best. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Madhujan Nade from M. C. Research. Please go ahead. Yes. Hi. Am I audible? Hi. Am I audible? Yeah. You can hear me. Yeah. Hi. I have just a simple question. How has, the pickup been in the month of July so far? And if we were to compare it with 2019 July, what percentage of 2019 July have you reached so far? So, Ma'am, to be honest, once things opened up in June, we expected that to be a quick recovery, but that was lesser than expected. But if I have to come talk about July, the first half of July has definitely been a faster recovery, and we are seeing some good demand. But comparing it to 2019, I think you'll have to give us the full month of July because second half is always stronger compared to the first half of the month. So right now it might be premature to compare it to July 'nineteen. I understand it's premature. But if you could just give a ballpark indication, whether it's 75%, 50%, whatever is your broad sense, not really We will do higher than that. I think you would be definitely 85% to 90% of figure to come there because I don't compare it to all other industries because our installed base seats are freezing. And what we've installed over the last 2 years is going to give us benefit in the coming year. So yes, for us, it's nearing 2019 July mid year, 10% lower. Sales. Okay. Okay. So any kind of I mean suppose assuming but not admitting, suppose if the Q3 is mild, given your installed base, the demand for consumable, etcetera, what kind of ballpark top line are you gunning for in 2022? I think I mean, like I said, I Rahul was talking. So I mean, first, I apologize because, of course, we would have some sort of a July on July comparison definitely with previous sales. But considering this is like, I think, this is 20th July, we don't have like a 18 or 19 day comparison, just available offhand, although it might be there on our whole SAP fee, I'll pause it out. But as far as the year goes, it's been a strange year for us, I mean, strange to be honest now almost because of the pandemic. So I really hope if the economy rebounds, which I'm hoping it will. Then we had like, I think, the last few months of the previous financial year were probably a better indication of where the market was, or where it would be if it was not affected by the pandemic. So or maybe that was a rebound, which was more than normal. So it's really difficult for us to predict. I think it's just going to depend on where the economy is. If the economy is strong, then I think we should definitely have a very good year. If manufacturing growth is strong, I think it May was very down for us because in April, we had a loss spillover orders from March. So we actually we had a strong April. And then May was quite muted. And June was better than May, but it was still quite, quite dull. But in July, it's been quite looking back to normal. So it's really difficult to predict. And there's a lot of variables because nobody even knows if there's going to be a 3rd wave, how the economy is going to react and so on. So I think if the manufacturing growth is strong, we will definitely have a good year. And if not, we'll still have a okay, I mean, a fairly good year because of all the internal work that we've done and the market share gains and so on. So in this installed base of 14,000 plus, courses for industrial, non industrial mix? I'm not sure offhand, but overall, our revenue is about 65% industrial to 70% industrial, they've been traditionally and more 35% FMCG Personal Care. Well, that is on your historic base. But incrementally, suppose if you were to just take the last 12 months, if you could just give us a sense of what has been the incremental ratio of industrial Last year, we had a stronger sale in the Packaging segment. Again, that was because the Industrial segment was more up and down. But again, it's like a year 1 year thing. So we don't know if that was a longer term trend or is it just the industrial production was down, it will reboot completely. So what happened was again, towards the end because a lot of stuff like where we sell a lot of things in construction material based industries like not only steel, but pipes, cable and wire, but of course board and so on, we got a good amount of sales in the last few months, last 6 months of last year. And then again, this quarter was a bit down. So it's so the packaging sectors is maybe frankly focused on more in the last 15 months because our belief is that it will get less affected by the pandemic or next waves that are happening. So we've but I don't know. It's very difficult to understand how the mix is affected. I think the industrial sector goes down more when demand comes down. And when the demand increases, it shoots up more. So, whereas packaging sector is more consistent, this is my rough reading of the situation. And so, we've had better sales in the packaging sector, but I'm sure that this year will be a good year for the industrial growth if there's no further pandemic related issues and the economy supported well by the government. As far as your new generation printer is concerned, this is the last question, ma'am. As far as your new generation printers are concerned, who are the buyers? Again, if you could give us a sense of the rough mix between industrial and packaging? The thermal inkjet is mainly in the packaging sector. It will be mainly food, pharmaceutical or some beverage, personal care. The high resolution printers will be a combination of packaging, where they use for carton coating and stuff and all goes in the wood sector. Yes, I think the thermal tranches is entirely in snack foods. So yes, I would say like in fact most of the new generation printers will be in packaging, would be the majority of that packaging, pharmaceutical and related industries. So typically, the cyclicality of your revenue would tend to go down as the share of the new generation centers go up. Is that a correct understanding? I think that this if you ask me personally, I don't know, like this pandemic was I mean, for me, economy is like the first time in a lifetime that something like this happened. So it's really difficult to say. So yes, I mean, I think considering that this was such an extreme event, obviously, the packaging sector was more resilient because people are still going to buy biscuits and gross in and things like that, whereas you can put off your consumption of buying washing machines and then all the components that go inside the washing machines, which are printed by us and so on. So yes, it's you're right about that in a way. But I think that it's really difficult for us to understand what is the long term effect of the pandemic. And is this like was this a one off or will this happen again? Yes. Thanks for patiently answering all my questions and all the best. Thanks. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jaysh Gandhi from Harshad Gandhi Securities. Please go ahead. Hello. Yes. No article, sir? Absolutely. Yes. So my question is also on the industry only. While the current market size according to you is closer to 1500, 1600 odd crores, do we see it going to 2,500 crores in next 5 years? While our annual report generally says we will I mean, the industry will grow by 10% to 15%. Do you see that coming supposed to say after this year, maybe when everything normalizes? Do you see it going to INR 2,500 INR 2,600 INR 2,600 INR And can we increase our market share here? So in the past, the market size has doubled about every 6, 7 years from so if you look at, say, 2,007 to 2,000 to now, the market size has gone from about 400 draws to about 1500 or something. So again, like I said, it's a very strange thing because this last 18 months has been very unpredictable. And nobody is exactly sure as to whether there's going to be a 3rd wave or not and whether there's permanent damage to the economy or it will bounce back. Pricing, if the economy continues as what it was before this, then I don't see why the growth will not continue at the rate of 10%, 15% a year easily for the next 10% and I guess all the way till we hit $5,000, dollars 6,000 per capita. So Mr. Gandhi, also let's do a quick translation. Even if we go at a CAGR of 11%, for the next 5 years, we will reach INR2500 crores. So I think that's quite achievable. So as you all said, 10% to 15% CAGR is achievable once the economy normalizes. And so one more thing. In the first caller's question, you were talking something about per capita income and I mean, you were relating our growth with the per capita income. Can you repeat that? Yes. So basically, as the economy, the per capita GDP goes to about $5,000 to $6,000 per capita, the coding and marketing industry typically grows at about twice that of GDP or twice that of manufacturing growth, if you will. So only beyond 5,000 per capita grows at, say, 2,000 No, up to 5,000 to 6,000 it grows at about double that of the GDP or double that. And how about beyond that, say, once we are, I mean, 5,000 per capita, how do we grow beyond that? Yes. So once it hits 5,000 to 6,000, it grows at about 1.5x GDP to about $10,000 to $11,000 And then post $10,000 to $11,000 the experience in other countries, being that it grows at about the same rate as GDP or other manufacturing growth. So when I mean GDP, I mean, I'm talking about manufacturing growth in all these situations. I get that. Thank you very much and best of luck for future. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kunal from Valium India Discovery Fund. Please go ahead. Thank you very much for the opportunity. I wanted to understand the potential of these new printers which we have launched. So I just want to understand in terms of your TTO, TTJ and high rise printers. So I wanted to understand how big could be the market for these printers in terms of units over the next 3 to 4 years? And in terms of our competitors, I mean how big are they in these products? Sudhakar, that's my first question. Yes. So I think that as far as the global market goes, it's more sophisticated than India. So in India, the CIG will be about 65%, 70% of the revenue of the overall market, sort of INR 1500 crores, say INR 1,000 crores or INR 1,000 crores plus will be the CIJ market and maybe INR 500 crores via all the other products. Whereas abroad, the CIJ is about 40% of the market of about $7,000,000,000 and the rest is other products. So we're just expecting that the same trends will fall in India as what they do abroad because in the end, the bigger companies are very tuned to what the international packaging outlook is. And then they adopt same guidelines as what their parent companies or the lean companies abroad do in their field. And it sort of percolates with a few years gap. So the same thing we're expecting here that as the market goes from INR 1500 crores to INR 2,500 crores, the CIG will continue to grow maybe from INR 1,000 crores to say, 1500 crores, 1400 crores or something. But as a percentage, it's a non CIG market that will grow faster. And maybe instead of the market being 65%, 2 thirds CIG and 1 third are the products, I mean, 60 65% CIG. It will be maybe more like 55%, 56% CIG and 45%, 46% other products. Even their sales mix would be the same, which means that even they would have 65%, 70% CIG sales, which is what we have? It's similar for all of us except for I think Mark M as a strong TTO sale. So yes, it could be so we all have our own specialty. I think we're very strong in the thermal inkjet. Mark M and margin is a bit strong in thermal transfer and we did a bit strong in laser. So but yes, we are then actually the strongest in thermaling driven high resolution printers by a long way. Got it, got it. And in terms of the value of these printers, I mean, in terms of when you compare it these the cost of I mean, the cost of the customer for these printers for the device as well as in terms of the consumables, what is the difference between these new generation printers and the old CID device and the cost of the consumables which the consumer has to consume? And in terms of the consumable, which the consumer is going to use for the life of the printer, is it any different? I mean, do these devices require less amount of consumables and at the same time, do you have a higher value for the unit, I mean, for the device? Or is it the same ratio? I mean, how do you So the device value depends on which configuration you take. So it could be lower than CI, it could be higher also. It just really depends on what exactly you want with the printer or the exact specification of the printer you're choosing. As far as the cost per print goes, normally the non CIG printers and ISPEs are more expensive to run than the CIG printers. But because of improved reliability, they're bit deferred. So that's the thing. There is an important mix up difference between the CIG printers in general versus a lot of the non CIG printers and non CIG printers have less service. So that's why customers prefer them because they don't have to rely so much on our service. And so they feel if there's a breakdown, they can just replace the part themselves, is swap out the printer very easily themselves, and they don't have to rely on us. So the consumables revenue is higher in the non CIG business normally on a per printer basis. It also depends on the type of application we are selling it. And the service revenue is quite old. Got it. Got it. Got it. So will it be fair to say that over a lifetime for the same industry and for the same, let's say, for the same set of same quantum of usage for the same application and same quantum, same time of usage, the aggregate revenue from a new generation printer of these, I mean, these new generation printers and a CIG printer, the new generation printers would have a high rate, including the device and the consumer than the service? So for the same application, yes. But what we've seen is that new printers create new applications also. So a lot of times where the CIJ printer is being used, people are continuing to use the CIJ printer. But then in certain industries like pharmaceuticals, say, people for the thermal inkjet printer, and they were not even using any type of printer previously. So that's an expansion of the market. In snack foods also, for example, a lot of people were using older printers like thermal control coders and they switched directly from thermal coders directly to thermal transfer printers. So sometimes it doesn't go it's not necessary that it goes from there to the CIG and then to the next technology, sometimes people are swapping. So in milk, people, for example, in the dairy industry, they use embossing. So if you see your milk product, they use a really cheap rollercoater, which the ink sort of spreads, sort of bluish or violet colored ink. And then sometimes they just emboss the pouch. And now you see some of them go directly to thermal transfer, thermal inkjet, they don't go to CIJ. So if it's a swap for swap, where a CIJ is being used and you convert to a non CIJ, you'll get a higher aggregate revenue normally. It also depends on the volume. So the volume is quite low. The service revenue actually becomes quite important to us for those applications. And if the volumes are higher, the consumers' revenue is more important as a driver of revenue from that printer, the aftermarket business. So where the volume is quite low, because these new generation printers don't really require much service at all. So it could be that it's cheaper to run, but in standard applications, which are higher volume, we make more revenue per printer of this. Got it, sir. And then just final question from my end. I wanted to understand in terms of the technological I mean, is there a possibility that over the next 4, 5 years, this the CIG printers could go through some sort of technological obsolescence? And or do you imagine using this? I mean, do you imagine customers using these technologies, let's say, for the foreseeable decade? And then in terms of your actual installed, these are 14,000 printers, how many printers move out of their useful life and how many in any given year, I mean, what is the annual life, average life? How many printers are out of the useful life every given year? Yes. So I'll just take it up one question at a time because it will be difficult. So in general, from our base, about 7 to 10 years is the use of life for printer. So it depends on the age of the base also. So if you've sold more printers recently, there's less printers that go into obsolescence. Printer that have been 5 to 10 years old, normally they have a major breakdown or some new requirement is covered, that's when customers phase them out? So Rahul will maybe give you just a better number on that exactly? Yes. So roughly, we have about 15% to 17%, which over the period do get either upgraded or replaced or stuff like that. So whatever are 14,000 installed base that we're talking is about the active printers which are there in the market. Correct. So sold printers are close to 20,000 printers, but active printers is 70,000. So that's obsolescence is taken care. And then of 14,000, you can assume maybe between 10% to 15% depending on the age and the mix of the printers will be obsolete every year. Got it. Got it. And the second part of your question, I missed that out. So the first part of your question, I will say. Yes. I think let others also ask because you know. So okay, no good problem. I'll yes, I'm done with the queue. Sure. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please limit your questions to 1 per participant. The next question is from the line of Sidharth Mehta, an individual investor. Please go ahead. Hi, I understand that you've been through the pandemic and it's a difficult time. So I appreciate your efforts to do whatever is possible. In your investor presentation in the second last slide, one sentence caught my eye and where it says, we have some new products that are likely to give us exponential growth. And also, are there any new products coming in for the pharma industry? Because that seems to be growing very rapidly. Yes. So specifically for the pharmaceutical industry, our thermal ingot range is very comprehensively addressed towards that industry. And we've got some solventings for our thermal inkjet, which actually worked quite well on that specific application. So yes, I mean that's the so we've got a good set of products. We've not actually been able to meet customers too much in the last few months. So it's been more of repeat orders from our existing customers or maybe we had already cases previously. But I'm hoping that this could be a pickup for us going forward. That's the first part. As far as the I mean, all the products that we're talking about, they're also like evolutions of them. So what's happened is we've not got the of them. So what's happened is we've not got the full sales benefit of these products of the new generations of products because of certain reasons. So because of the pandemic, it's sort of stalled us a little bit. So we are expecting that because we had a bunch of strong cases before and even now that we should be able to get and we've done the groundwork of proving the printers and establishing their performance. And we are quite confident that we should get some larger orders now in these new generation printers. All right. Do you feel that given that there's so much promise that it would be worth to maybe strengthen our marketing and sales and get some more aggressive and more capable or experienced people in that department? So actually, we've got a very strong sales team. We actually took some of the time that we had available to us in the 1st lockdown and even this lockdown or the 2nd surge, we were actually working from home and we couldn't really travel too much for the field because when customers aren't willing to meet and either we want to risk our own People, yes. So what happened is we did a lot of stuff like just the groundwork of cleaning databases, contacting customers, updating a lot of information, sort of setting ourselves up for the next few months for the hopefully for the coming year. So we have been strengthened that up. We've got a very strong system and a good team. It's just and we have, I think, totally almost like, Robin, what's the exact number? We have like 140 odd sales and service sales people and managers and something like 200 and something engineers, 2 20 engineers. So we actually have a lot of people and our service network is widely been acknowledged by everyone as being the best in the business right now. So we were quite we're very proud of our service team. Yes. And just in terms of our sales that you mentioned, what percentage of our profits do you think comes from consumables? Rahul? So yes, as we've already always maintained that consumables is our main driver for profits because in the meantime, we don't believe so our gross margin continues to remain at about 80% on the consumables. No, I mean of the overall profit, what percentage of the overall profit is from consumables, you think? Generally, we don't have a breakup like that, but yes, consumables is dominant. It will be more than 50%. Okay. All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead. Yes. Namaskar sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Hi Saket. I remember you were there at the AGM yesterday. Yes, sir. I was here, sir. Yes, sir. Sir, firstly, sir, about this marks division part of the story, how is this unfolding for us in terms of revenue and profitability as this would be the full year and the 2nd wave also and even now with things about the third one. So how have you positioned I think INR 10 to INR 11 crores have been invested in this segment? So if you could give some ballpark figure regarding the revenue and the bottom line we are expecting? So I think we've recovered most of the cost of this investment and that was our original target. It was like I said, it was not overall too good. We did invest some more money recently. That was just to ensure that we get all the because of course it's controlled print. So we had to have all the perfect lab equipment, the best of everything, which is what we've done. But at the same time, we also have applied for some of the FDA and the NIOSH certification. We already have that for the FFP. So the certification process for all of the masks actually costs a lot of money, the auditing and so on. So obviously, we want to be absolutely top of the guide in whatever we do. So that's where we spend some money. But like I said, the idea was not it's not I mean, it's not like the main area of business focus. So it was to do it. We were confident we'd recover it. We had some customers where we were originally supposed to export to them across the board, but that didn't work out because of the export ban, but it's all okay now. No, sir. But just what is the understanding now for this year? We have taken depreciation benefits and all, but how is this division going to contribute in terms of top line and bottom line? That was my question. I could I understand what you were trying to explain. Margate the focus Margate the focus To be honest, we did it. Obviously, if there is some extra thing and we are always there to support with our CSR and everything and also of course to help cover that, we'll continue selling it mass on-site. But it's not I mean, it's not enough focus or a factor. So in our revenue thinking, it might contribute a few crores there. Just to add to what Mr. Shivan is saying, Sanket ji would like all of you all to just keep the focus on the coding and marking, which is our main business. And mask is considered as a bonus. Like 2nd wave, obviously, is not predictable. 3rd wave is also not certain. So I can imagine that whatever we lose in the coding and marketing business with the next wave and the wave after that will be much more than any amount we'll make up with the mask or anything like that. So So we don't want the The best health for the country and our employees. Yes. So even going forward, coding and marketing will be our main business segment. Mask, we don't want much focus to be on that. Right. So we did other income also for this quarter with a sale of flat. What led to that, sir? And does is it a precursor to our investment in Liberty Chemical also with the market improving? Or what kind of indication you can give with the sale of property? No, see that facility was not being utilized by us since Nalagaddha and Goati had already come up over the last 10 years. So it was just an asset which was lying around and we thought that it's better to monetize it rather than so we are making some investments in offices like we're taking an office in Calcutta or we're looking for some other office space, which is on the length, we didn't feel that our Versailles facility was being utilized at all. And we invested in Nalagadd also. Of course, the whole work got held up because of the COVID pandemic, and we had some issues with the completion. It just took some much more time than expected because it stopped in between. But we haven't We need to consolidate Sakhijis rather than just spread out and not having any utility of that. Yes, yes. Net realization on the cash flows. Correct, sir. And net realizations for this property, sir, how much it was? So most of it was already at written down value was very low. So about INR 3 crores, the INR 15 is the profit that we made, so we can add a few more lakhs. So less than INR 4 crores, around INR 4 crores. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahul Kothi, an individual investor. Please go ahead. Hello. Hi. Congratulations on a good set of numbers. So yes, I have two questions, okay? Beginning with 1, so having tracking like investing in a company for a very long time, so like couple of years back, you had done a QIP. So just wanted to know like what is the plan with that amount? So is it still lying? And do you have any plans for that? Or what is it? We explained it in the previous calls also. QIP was about 3 years ago when we had some other business opportunities and we were looking for investments in some other R and D such a laboratory. But that hasn't materialized and the money has been utilized in the company. And wherever it was in excess, we've given it out as dividends to the shareholders. So as of now, we have been working debt free for the last 3 years. And probably that money resulting of that side. Okay. You are saying that it's been it has already been utilized, whatever had been raised, right? For business purposes, it was raised for maybe for some other growth opportunities. But even since that thing materialized, we are continuing to utilize it in the regular business. Okay. Okay. So because as I remember, it was being like raised to go abroad and set up something, right? So that is not on the table, right, as I understand. So we did do our research, but then with the pandemic and anything, we are happy that we didn't go down that route because it could have just wasted the money of the company. But as of now, when we get an opportunity, we will utilize because we have available cash flows with the company. So it's not that the plan is deferred for cash flows, but we will wait for better times. Okay. And the second question was on the printer. Okay. So when you say you have a printer base of more than 13,000, so if I remember correctly, right, previously, you had mentioned that there are some printers which were you can be cementing the 3, but if you are not using the premium was produced by us, Okay. Does this count including includes those printers or it excludes those printers? We continue to supply in the cement industry inside even in the previous year. And the current year, we have been getting some long term contracts as well as some contracts, which we had lost 3 years back. I'm told by my team even that is 1 or 2 of them have come back in our fold. So we do continue to supply actively to the cement industry and the printers improves those. Yes. So if I remember correctly, when I attended like a year back, a couple of years back, okay, that you mentioned like one of the team members like mentioning that, okay, they have been using the consumables produced by someone else like counterfeit consumables. So because of that in the cement industry you are facing some headwinds. So just wanted to know that whether that is still continuing and whether that those number of printers which were affected by this is being counted in this part of the affected by this is being counted in this part of 13,000 or is it excluding that? That's what my question was. So no, no. So I mentioned that this 13,000, 14,000 printers are active printers. Wherever our consumable is not being used, we are not including it in this number. Wherever even in the cement industry, our printers are active or we are gaining the install base, that gets included. So this includes only the active printer, not the ones which are discontinued. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shweta Jain from ANS Wealth. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. I just had a couple of follow-up questions. So one was, I think you mentioned that typical printer life is 5 to 7 years. So I still want to 7 to 10 years. Okay. 7 to 10 years. So what typically happens to the printer after the life cycle? I mean, the spare part becomes do they come back to us? Or they are sold in an unorganized market? Normally, these printers, we scrap them or the customer scraps them. Okay. Okay. Because there's a hydraulic segment in it and the electrons normally get outdated, so we can only support for that long. And the hydraulics and the rest of it obviously because they have got ink inside them, these are aggressive things for many years. So it sort of wears it out slightly, almost like a car, which is beyond a certain number of kilometers. Understood. Understood. And sir, also in terms of consumables, is there an organized sector for consumables also? Or I just want to understand that once we sell a printer to a client, is the customer bound to take the consumables only from us or he will also have other opportunities? Yes. So there is a like a part large part of the online market is essentially people who deal in consumers for OEMs, for major OEMs. That's, I'd say, like a certain part of the market. And yes, we implemented RFID chip in our own printer in all the ink models. And that's why one I think this was in CIG printer specifically, I'm talking about, I think, it was 2017 or something, maybe Yes, in the Q3. So something like for 3.5, 4 years we've been quite protected because of that and it's definitely helped us. But before that, maybe 25%, 30% of our printers used to use pirated or spoolie sinks. And I mean, even one investor did call up, so like most of the printers we sold in the cement industry also are using spurious inks. So yes, and those printers weren't protected and it's not easy to change the architecture of that printer to protect those new printers over there. So we're putting protection in all our new generation printers as and when we redesign the printer for the so now when we make a model, it would last about 7, 8 years And then Okay. So when we put the RFID chip, sorry, sir. So when we put the RFID chip, how the like so you can't use any other products but our product, is it? Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. And also, like, I just want to understand, you know, right now customer is setting up its plant or whatever, at what level do we come in? Are the printers installed at the later stage of the entire plant comes up? Or from day 1, do we supply these printers or it's a parallel process? Also once the printer is installed, okay, how easy or difficult for the customer is to switch from us to our competitor? Yes. So the first part of the thing is normally it depends from customer to customer. So there are 2 types of switches that happen. 1 is, of course, factories that are built are normally lasting for a pretty long period of time, whereas the printers itself have a life of, like I said, 7 to 10 years. So printers do get phased out multiple times in the life of the factory or the production line and normally dust was also upgrade their production line multiple times within that factory. When it's a project stage, when I'm setting up a greenfield project or a large brownfield expansion, normally customers then plan the printers, the requirements, everything much in advance. Whereas if it's just a minor expansion, it's just an additional line, which is just a copy of the existing things, then people tend to order more towards just a few weeks before the commissioning of the line, not that much in advance. So that is specifically regarding the thing. As far as the switching costs go, obviously, there is a certain amount of hassle because the operators get used to a certain interface of the printer. The maintenance cycle and other parameters of each printer are different. So it's a bit like switching from an iPhone to an Android to, I don't know, whatever some sort of other phone. So it's not that difficult, but it is problematic. Then again, for most customers, it's also about stocking multiple types of consumables and fluids in stock versus one type of fluid or rather one type of ink from one type of supplier. It's about negotiating EMCs, filters, stocking those and spares from multiple suppliers versus one supplier. So most customers tend to prefer 1 or maximum at the rate 2 suppliers. And a lot of the large customers will have only make one supply in one factory and maybe another supply in another factory and so on. So it's yes, it's not that you cannot switch, but you won't switch for a small reason. You switch if it's like a it's a sufficient need for a problem with production downtime, you will switch, a reasonable reason to switch. But the switching costs are not very small, but they're not huge either. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Namit Mehta from KC Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, Rahul. Hi, Shiva. Congratulations on another good quarter. Just a couple of questions from myself. So one, I'm just wondering if you can tell us a little bit about directionally how the order sizes are moving in terms of printers. Are you seeing a lot of larger orders now that you've developed more and more fensibility in New York at a larger scale today? Are you seeing an order size change? Or is it roughly in line with what it used to be? So to be honest, yes, Shiva, you go ahead. Yes. So normally, what you see is that the frequency of orders increases as you become bigger. Like I said, except for large greenfield or brownfield expansions, customers on order like printers normally in large quantities, They order like 2, 4 printers, 8 printers, 12 printers at a time, depending on how many lines they have and what their requirements are. So large orders normally happen when something like a dairy, which already has a lot of established lines, and then they decide that they won't start printing on all their lines and then they say, okay, we need 40 printers that will go. And that, of course, happens. And that's mainly because of the factories themselves have become bigger, not but I'll say like what you tend to see is that the frequency of orders increases faster most of the time. So even established companies rather than going through everything in a big bang, they tend to order more frequently and cover the new application requirements that way. Understood. That's helpful. And can you also help me with the mix between printers and consumables and spare this quarter? If you could point out whether it helps me back to that's why the EBITDA margins are a little bit lower mid quarter versus the past year? Here? So, yes, on the printer front, we did about 16% to 18%. Consumables was 48% to 50%, it was on the lower side. Sales and service around 23%, 24%. And masks was about 12% as well. Got it. Thanks, Raj. So I guess once the consumable share increases here, you would expect EBITDA? Yes, yes. We've always discussed. So once the consumable is anything above 55%, we definitely will have much stronger discount from that. Yes. I think that there was just less manufacturing this year. So I mean, less or rather this quarter. So yes, maybe the ink sales were a bit down because of that. But definitely, maybe it was and to a less extent, June were quite below our expectations. Perfect. And just last question on squeezing. If you can I know this business at the end of the day is a service business? If you can just talk a little bit as to how different processes and systems you put in place to ensure high quality of service over long periods of time? I know the SAP is one example of that. If you can just talk a little bit more about that? Yes. So I think first, we've got a strong training program in place. Each engineer has like we've got 6 levels to assign for each service engine of ours. So when you join, you have to pass 3 levels within 6 months. And unfortunately, if you fail one level, you have to leave if you don't cross all three levels within 6 months. So that's the first part, so that each engine has to be up to a certain basic speed where they can take care of 80% plus of all the breakdown calls within a 6 month period. So the first part of the the most important part of our customer satisfaction is our training program. After that, of course, the engineers' gains come slower. We also have a brush up test at once every year to make sure that the engineers not lost knowledge. And also regular trading, so there are new models, new printers that they're not comfortable on. They get that new knowledge and that's it's integrated into our testing procedure. So that happens every year for every engineer for that level. And then the senior engineers go on to a level 4, level 5, level 6 training. So that's the core behind our customer satisfaction and our service team. And of course, the SAP is there to control every aspect of the service, the returns, the parts in the moment. Of course, if people enter all sorts of data like the printer, the number of breakdown calls, the repeat analysis. So we get a lot of data if we know that the same printer say broken down again within 30 days of a breakdown call, it sends in a lot and then the senior manager is supposed to look into it and find out why the second breaks. We have those types of processes and tickets in place, but I would say like the fundamental benefit is 2 things, one is the training. And the second is the giveaway you widespread service network, like I think we have something like 240 or 250 engineers across India. And you're not too far from the customer in almost any part of the country. So the service time and also makes the engineers' life much more comfortable because almost all his calls are local calls. So I think that that widespread speech combined with strong training, which is not easy to do when we have a distributed service network, I think that combination is the path that really enables us to provide a high quality of service. And of course beyond that, we have insights sales team and the service team, which call up the customers randomly. They follow-up to make sure that the customer is satisfied, take feedback from the customer and so on. But of course, we have from a technical viewpoint also, like I said, we have some alerts to make sure that if the number of technical failures in a printer is more than expected, then it gets alerted and then then all the way down from our service manager, our national service manager to our national sales and service head and then even to me. So there are multiple escalations that will happen in that particular process. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead. Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity again. Sir, I was talking about this video jet case part of the story. That is done and tested or anything more? We have done some provisions earlier. Hello? So yes, yes. So no, the status quo on the case, we've already explained whatever we explained previously. The course in Mumbai are not very active. It's all working through virtual. So as of now, there is no further update on that, sir. But we have done our provisions and all the, I think, so. We have given guarantee as for the course direction. We've already given a guarantee, bank guarantee to the course. Right, sir. And sir, one of the participants did speak about this. The main threat with this industry part, sir, business can grow depending upon the growth in the industrial segment and all. But other than that, in the hindsight, what other technological advancement or things can change wherein the CIGA printers, which are the dominant printers, can we they become redundant in the with the phase of technology. So I just wanted that answer that question to be answered, sir. Yes. So I think you've already explained, like even right now, if you look at it, we have a suite of products. And like I said, abroad, the market is already more mature. So when we're talking about that $7,000,000,000 market size abroad, we will see that CIG is only about 40% of that in overall size, 67%. So we expect on the same gradual evolution to take place in India also and we're seeing that. CIG must have been 80% of the market, I think, like 5 years, 6 years ago, maybe more than that. So the same thing will happen here. It's a gradual change that will happen. And the market is evolving. So CIG is not going to go anywhere because for many applications, it is superior to any other printer out there. But for some applications, specific printers are superior. And we see as the customers become more mature, they'll go from more of a mix of products depending on the application and the line. Kush. Very correct, sir. And in the AGM yesterday, sir, you told about this payment of royalty for Internet of Things of type printers. So what is the aspect behind it? And how much is the royalty that we are paying? I think we are unable to launch the product, but we will be launching something this year, the most communicative The royalty that we pay our partners, KBA coding and we are saying that the Internet of Things is built in some of our new printers, what we are saying. But we are being unable to launch some of our new models because of the pandemic. So it's a bit stuck up. We're also having a shortage of chips right now. So we are focusing on the existing models rather than new models that we don't have. Correct. So how differentiated are they, sir, when you are coming you are speaking about it? What are the key differentiation on this product? How are they different from the ones they will be catering to the same industry, I think so. Yes, yes. So it's just a it's a next generation model. So suppose you had a printer before you had to connect it with a serial cable to your computer. Now LAN cable, yes. LAN cable. So yes, with the LAN now it's wireless or it's Bluetooth, Maybe it's faster, it's duplicate. It's the same type of thing fundamentally. You're still printing whatever three lines on water of water that's passing by and so on. But it's a bit smaller, a bit faster, a bit like bigger touchscreen and all those types of benefits. So like so it's not a huge benefit. There's some improvements everywhere, less cleaning, a little bit less maintenance cycle and so on. But it's not I mean, it's an upgrade over the old printer. It's not a change. Correct. It's an upgrade over the old printer. Yes. So Board has been very kind and has been very liberal in fact, sir, with the dividend distribution. And I think the dividend policy will also come in the annual. But with the changes in the taxation, this is creating a more of a higher taxation at the recipient side and you being also the largest shareholder is also facing the same. So has the Board looked also in terms of buyback as one of the more way of giving the cash back and also creating more value for the shareholders with increased market capitalization for the organization? I think the board will decide as in when things come up. We can't answer market sensitivity. Issues. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shrutta Dain from N. S. Wealth. Please go ahead. Hi, first. Thank you. Just a couple of follow-up questions. So one was in terms of strategy, how do we see ourselves in next 5 years in terms of revenue? And what are the key steps that would lead us there? So could you just throw some light on it, sir? Yes. So I think, Shweta, in the next I mean, looking at the medium term, I think we've got a strong suite of products. Like I said, we also have 1, 2 printers, which we are phasing in and changing one of our core models in the CIJ. So our focus is essentially to be as efficient as possible over the next few years. In fact, the pandemic actually occurred at a very inopportune time for us because it sort of actually took our momentum away at a time when we were growing faster and capturing with more market share. And what happens is when the customers have less time to meet you face to face, the tendency is to just go with repeat orders on the existing equipment that you have. So if the market is more back to normal and there's less issues, then again, I'm expecting that considering the edge we have in certain products, especially with the high resolution printers and the thermal inkjet printer that we can gain strong market share there. And in the CIG, we have been doing well. But overall, I think if we can do that, then we can have a strong growth. So our focus is more on increasing our market share. Like I said, again, our industry doesn't allow for large market share swings unless somebody has got some really major issue that happens to them. So it's about grinding out that 1%, 2% market share gain every year for the next 5 years. And of course, like I said, the overall market size is something we can't predict because it's going to depend on the overall industrial growth in India. Okay. And then growth in India. Thank you. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Karan Battilia for closing comments. Thank you, Raul. Thank you, Shiva, for answering all the queries. With this, we can finish the call. Any closing remarks you want to make, Rahul? I just want to thank everyone for coming. We totally appreciate your time. I think for the 2nd surge took everyone by surprise. And the most important thing is that is actually saving sound. I think that's the most important lesson for pandemic. So that's my sincere thanks to everyone for dedicating their time and resources. Thank you, everybody, and your best of luck. Thank you. With this, we continue following forward. Thank you. Welcome.