Earnings Call: Q2 2021

Aug 24, 2021

Quarterly report

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Trifork Group Second Quarter Results Presentation. My name is Dan Deasley. I'm in charge of Group IR, Head of Group IR. I would like to introduce the speakers of today. It's Jorg Larsen, Founder and CEO. He has founded the company 15 years ago and he's a Board Member and Founder of Multiple Startups in the European Technology Space. We have Christian Wolf Anderson, CFO, he has joined the company in 2007. He was the Co Founder and CFO of an IT infrastructure company that was acquired by Trifork in 2007. We'd like to talk to you about the technicalities of the conference. We have a presentation lasting about 30 minutes followed by Q and A session. The first part is on listen only mode to the audience. If you would like to ask a question, you can raise your hand. You find this hand on your screen anytime during the presentation and also during the Q and A. By clicking this again you can lower your hand. Alternatively, you can also type the question on your screen, which will be responded to at the end during the Q and A session. The presentation is being recorded and the web stream can be accessed on our website after the presentation. We'd like to ask you to have a look at this disclaimer. I'll pause for 30 seconds before handing it over to Thank you. And Jorgen, go ahead please. Thank you, Dan. And thank you, everyone, for joining this session. I'm very pleased and honored that you are here and we are also looking forward to the next 1 hour with you. We believe we have Some good news. We sent out our announcements this morning and here we will give you a short summary. So first of all, we have seen good growth in Q2 and in H1. And if we look at this picture down to the left, We see the Q2 performance. So we are actually up 55% in revenue in Q2, of which 25% is organic growth and the rest is the integration you can say revenue from 9. Then if we look at the whole 6 months period, we actually also see a strong growth of 46%, of which 18% is organic. So it indicates we have an acceleration in growth in over the 2 quarters of 1st 6 months. If you look at the key numbers, then we have around 40,000,000 In Q2 revenue, EUR 7,000,000 EBITDA, Trifox segment adjusted EBITDA And also a margin of 18.4%, which is also up and which is the Q2 margin. And then our leverage at this point in time is minus 1, so net debt over adjusted EBITDA. And as we have announced earlier, we are comfortable with a plus leverage of 1.5. So we are also still on an M and A track with the company. If we look at the H1 numbers, we are €79,000,000 We are €15,000,000 on the Triforce segment adjusted EBITDA, a margin of just short of 19% of EBITDA, Trifox segment adjusted And net liquidity, euros 24,000,000. And if we look at some key statistics, The number of business units, which is our main growth mechanism, it's really to create new business units and grow them and split them and add new ones. So we are now up to 57 business units, 19 active Trifork Lab start ups. We just passed 900 employees worldwide. And also the thing that actually leads the growth is our crystal ball on YouTube. So if you look here in this graph, you can see the development over the past quarters in number of years on our YouTube channel. So we are very committed to post what we believe is relevant content and then the community We'll then judge if it's relevant. And we can see that we have a really fast growth. And actually, it grew more than 60% over the past 12 months. So Christian, please move on to next page. So we have a few highlights here. We will now say that we have had a successful integration of 9 And they also have good continued organic growth. We did acquire BELIEA, which is also fully integrated and showing good traction in Switzerland. We also completed the divestment of Humio, but we still have a good collaboration with both Humio, but also CrowdStrike where we are now resellers of also new products from CrowdStrike in our traffic security. We have a few updates on sustainability at the end, but here we can say we made 2 investments into sustainable companies in the smart building sector and we are also a good halfway with building our first own smart building office in Aarhus in Denmark. We're also pleased that we were part of making the COVID passport, which enables a lot of people to be able to travel and go to restaurants, etcetera, most more smoothly. And this has mainly been a really good experience. And the collaboration with that company has gone very, very well and of course with the customer. So we are very pleased about that. Also after 18 months, we actually did have our first physical conference in Aarhus, the GoTo conference. But actually a little bit Earlier than that, we also had the pleasure of helping to host the Alliance of Democracy Conference here in Copenhagen. Christian, maybe move on. So here you have the picture you probably know that the Travel Group consists Two main segments, the Trifork segment and the Trifork Labs segment. The Trifork segment is our 3 verticals and our 3 horizontals And the labs is where we do investments to for various purposes. One is to explore new technology. A second reason can be to drive business and to be a front runner for our business. But also, we actually build components and products that we need for developing software and solutions for our customers and we have a we actually have a case story on this today. Yeah, Kristian? This is also probably familiar to you. Our Inspire, Build, Run is our sub segment, and we see here growth In build and in Ron and considerable growth, we actually see a growth of just short of 37% organic in Ron and that we believe is very strong. And also then we have seen A really a very strong growth in build. So 52% It's quite high for us, and it's also more than we expected going into this year. Inspire It's still influenced by COVID in regards to revenue, but as you can see with the 25,000,000 views. We have put all sales up for growing that and we believe that's the major KPI for measuring Inspire Impact. If you move on, Christian. So first, a little bit on the verticals. Where the verticals is that where we have deep domain knowledge about what we do. So we see FinTech growing in Q2 and it was growing less in Q1. As you can see, the combined growth for the half year was just 3%, but actually in Q2, 32%. And we have some really interesting engagement in FinTech going on at the moment. So it is today 12% of the total revenue. And On digital health, which is 11% of the total revenue, we have seen growth of 15% in Q2, 10% in the year for the whole period. So we are also happy to see that it's this way and not the other way that Q2 is stronger than Q1. In Smart Building, we it's still our new business error in regards to The version 2 of it, 10 years ago, we started doing components for Or making components smarter for companies like Bonnfos and Danfos and those. And now the second version of our smart building business area is to I cover the complete building and this is something that will take time. So we need to have more patients before business will come. Christian, maybe move on. So the big winner of this period has been Smart Enterprise with a growth of 51%. And in Q2 with record breaking 130 1.7% and for the whole period, 100 101%. So the 51% is the part of the total revenue and I think I said growth. Growth is even stronger, so between $100,000,000 $131,000,000 for the Q2 and the half year. Cyber Protection And it's also a very good story here. We see for Q2 a strong growth of 50%, but for the whole period 80%. And this was actually a baby business area like smart building. So it's a rather new business area to Trifog, but it shows really strong momentum. And in cloud operation where we have a lot of run revenue, we also see growth And for the Q2, 8% and for the 8%, 1% just short of 16%. Christian, maybe move on. So here I'd like to give you an example of what we do. We are very happy when customers actually are interested And putting the name forward of something new have done for them. And this one is even more interesting Because it's in the Smart Enterprise area that where we had the growth of the period of 102% And total revenue of EUR 40,000,000. So it's there's a lot of business here. Maybe if you move on, Christian. So for a few years, we have been working to make the life of Organizations easier and also for the frontline workers. So this case story is a follow-up on our Vestas case story that Probably you have recalled and also Apple has featured video on, the rail owners here will now experience the same degree of usability And speediness, so this case story is all about all the Orange people who works day and night To make the rails in Denmark safe, that means that they go out and check the rails and We distribute more than 60,000 work orders to more than 650 workers in the field and manage more than 750,000 assets. So for instance, If a track needs to be welded because the welding is needs to be redone, Then during the night, the team will go out and then they will repair the rail on a specific placed and then quality assure this and report it back. And also when they need spare parts, they can also see this in the app. So they have the shortest distance to the spare part they need. So this is something that really optimizes the business of rail owners. And this is all on the back of SAP and they are actually most of the rail owners in Europe they use SAP. So we are and have been in contact with these rail owners across Europe. So it's really good that now we have a case story to lean on and to show other rail owners. Christian? So the update on lab activities, we just We'll highlight a few. So first of all, in FinTech, we are very pleased that we have entered a 25% ownership of The company add money. The 3 other owners are midsized banks and the first Product was already developed 2 years ago and is now being used not only by these Bank partners, but also other banks outside this joint venture. And we are now working on new products that will the innovative in the FinTech space. CACHE is another example. It's a consumer bank. It's a challenger bank. And on my phone, I actually have a prototype of this bank and I wish I could actually use it live. And hopefully in a short time, I will actually be able to use this bank. It has some really cool next gen features For everyone and people like you and me. Then we have in smart building. So as I said, it is still in the making, the whole smart building business area. And right now, we are making the right partnerships with the parties we need To build this both on the supplier side, but also on the customer side. So we spent a lot of time building these right partnerships. And with AARKIN, I already mentioned that we created this company, co founded AARKIN And we are now already very short into the life have a reference case story. And these systems are not easy to build And not easy to integrate. So I'm very pleased with the speed of the value here. Christian? Yes. So very quickly here. We have been adding 8 additional business units. We are doing intensive business unit leader training workshops. For the European growth, we have acquired BELAYER, and we have seen total growth of 46% and this is across countries. We have seen significant growth in run of short of 37% And we have added in Switzerland a Tier 4 Swiss Operations Center and that's the highest level of certification of a hosting center you can have. So we're very pleased with this cooperation and we are building a new op center in the northern part of Denmark as well. And we have successfully added a new security platform and actually also added a try to security brand. So focusing and doubling down even more on security, strategic collaborations with Admoney and Drup as already mentioned. And we have also done collaborations with water utility companies and the cache I already mentioned, we have added 2 partnerships or we have added 1 more partnership with NVIDIA, which is an AI hardware vendor. And also, we got a second award from IBM And I think the only one in Europe that was given in the security area. So very pleased with that as well. So Christian, maybe move on. Here is a short ESG update. So the 25,000,000 views on YouTube, very high growth. We have total in the whole company 19.3% females and in our management group 24%. So that's the latest update here. And we are in more than 25 nationalities in the group And sick leave still below 2%, which we are very pleased with. And we have started and halfway through the First try for smart building, lab investments in the ESG area and in smart building, and we are still committed to invest EUR 1,000,000 in forestation, so we can get the materials for our future buildings, but we are still surveying this area. And also we have been improving on our reporting standards In the IPO and post the IPO. Christian, the word to you. Okay. My name is Christian Wolf. I'm CFO in Trivert. And now I will deep dive a little more into the financial performance. So starting here with the Travert Group performance. So, Travel Group revenue, looking into here, as John just mentioned, that we saw both organic and inorganic growth and was just short of 55% growth overall in the 2nd quarter And just short of 25% in organic growth. So the growth is Coming from Built and Run, division will deep dive a little more into the sub segment a little later. But especially the Danish public sector was part of this with high activity level in digital health and smart enterprise. And also the cyber protection area really grew, as Jan mentioned, in relation to the business areas and then U. K. FinTech grew as well We still have not or only completed one GoTo conference, so the Inspire revenue is still Low compared to what is in the normalized business. Here we deep dive into the performance for the Trafler Group. And since we guide on adjusted EBITDA and EBIT, we are focused on these numbers on a group basis. So here you also see that we have continued growth and grew even more in the results compared to last year Q2 versus Q2. That said, of We also saw a small impact of the COVID-nineteen situation in the Q2 last year. And this year, we have not seen the same kind of impact. But still, we have achieved a nice growth and now have a 17.1% adjusted EBITDA margin in the group and 17.6% when looking at the first half year. On EBIT and this is a non adjusted EBIT looking into here, meaning that all the IPO related costs etcetera is included in this EBIT results showing here. But still here, we saw an increase compared to Q2 last year of 164 percent to an EBIT margin of 9.7% in the 2nd quarter. Diving into the Trivert segment. So the Trivert segment, the operational segment in this Trivert group. So here we guide on adjusted EBITDA and adjusted EBIT. And here you show see the results here. So Primarily, the increase in the overall margins came from the run based business where we saw improvement in margins. I'll deep dive into that a little later. But also the build based segment overall for the second half or the first half really improved compared to last year. So overall here, you see adjusted EBITDA improving by 91.8 percent to a margin of 18.4% for the 2nd quarter and keeping up with 18.9% in the First half overall. Adjusted EBIT, meaning adjusted for the IPO related costs and the cost of running the Trifer Glass business is here what you see in Q2, €4,400,000 in 2021 equal to 11.1% margin And 165 percent growth. In Q2, we only had 0.1 Cost related to IPO because we also got reimbursed by the selling shareholders for some of the cost. Overall, in the second or in the first half of twenty twenty one, we had a total cost of €1,900,000 So that is what adjusted for in relation to the adjusted EBIT. Moving on one step deeper into the traffic segment performance, we then have the sub segments Inspire, Build and Run. And in those sub segments you see the results here. As Jan already mentioned earlier, we saw we now have Ron contributing with 21.8 percent of total revenue and this is the $17,300,000 here you see for the first half. All on run rate segment see profitability and adjusted EBITDA margin of 20%. I will deep dive into the Q2. The largest sub segment is still the build based revenue Due to the high growth also inorganic, we got to 61 point 2% or 77% of all revenue in Schreiber Group and an EBITDA margin of 22.1%. So all here, you see adjusted EBIT accounting up to €15,000,000 In the build sub segment, we also here account for how things are divided into organic and inorganic growth. So here on revenue, you see the division. So in Q2, we had 24% growth organic and overall growth of 65.8%. In the adjusted EBITDA for the build sub segment, You see here a margin of 17.9% in Q2 compared to 19.6% in Q2 2020. So this market decrease is not something we see as stable, but it's more into fluctuations and When new engagements are starting, ending, etcetera, so something we'll see a level out throughout the year. Looking into the run sub segment performance, then we also see here revenue growth. But what you see here is also what Jon told initially that all growth here almost has been organic. So only a very small part of this has been inorganic. So this is really the area that grows the most organic in the Trifor Group. What you also see here is We achieved a margin improvement compared to Q2 2020. So now in Q2, we had 23.5% in adjusted EBITDA margin. And overall, as I mentioned before, we have €3,500,000 in the run based sub segment in adjusted EBITDA equal to margin of 20%. Then we go to the traffic lapse segment and see how things develop. So Jarno already talked about Qumio deconsolidation or sale of asset. And this is where you see the large difference from the end of 2020 to the first Half of twenty twenty one from accumulated unrealized gains to accumulated realized gains. So we did the exit in Q1, Q2, finalized. So this is the basis for this adjustment. Overall, you see that we now have EUR 22,600,000 on our balance sheet on the investments and this is divided to EUR 14.9 Being cumulized unrealized gains and €7,700,000 in the investments that we have done in the period. So you see also the increase of €2,200,000 in new investments done in the first half of twenty twenty one. Then I just want to point out into the cash flow and financial position. Jern already mentioned that we now have a leverage ratio of net debt To adjusted EBITDA of minus €1,000,000 this is based on a cash position of €24,400,000,000 net cash. Meliad, net cash. So the development we saw was We had operational cash flow in the first half of twenty twenty one of $8,400,000 Then we also saw the proceeds from the exit of Humio. Then we paid out dividend before the IPO of 12.7%, both shareholders of the chartered holding and non controlling interest. And then we have proceeds from the IPO of $17,400,000 And then we did We organized our financial position in relation to loans, etcetera. And we did the investments I just talked about both in Investments in Traffic Labs, but also investments in purchasing NCIs to lower this for the future. Based on all these numbers, we have an update to our guidance. And here you have the initial guidance that was published at our IPO and update data guidance to show what changed. So what you see here is that we narrowed the guidance still Within the same range, but narrowed into €145,000,000 to €150,000,000 in revenue. And also In relation to the organic growth, we have this to be between 12.5% to 15%. In the Triforce segment adjusted EBITDA, We then also narrowed in from 23.7 to 28.5 to 26 So in our range of the existing guidance. On Triferic EBIT, We still guide on the same range. IPO related cost was in high end and also the cost to our traffic lapse segment, the That we adjust for was in the high end. So this is the reason for keeping the guidance here on the same range. When talking about guidance, we have also published that we're looking into an opportunity, a potential opportunity To deconsolidate one of our smaller, faster growing companies, Subsidiaries currently, DONG Health, where we see an opportunity to actually accelerate growth even more in this company to be more product based company. And this is in our business model something that we'd like to do in our traffic labs. So if we succeed with that and bringing in new external investors into the company, then we'll see a potential deconsolidation in the second half of twenty twenty. These were the words into the guidance And now we'll move on to a Q and A session. Let me remind you quickly if you want to ask a question just push on the hand button on your screen. To lower your hand, you can push it again. We have a first question here from Paul Jessen. Actually, there was a question before. So from Jacob, Dan. And I think it was a question for me because it was a question about what is your patience with Smart Building. And the psychology and culture at Trifork is that on day to day business, We are not very patient. We want things to be done today if possible. But on the strategic level, We are very patient and I've been doing this for soon 26 years and I'm not planning to stop. And there are other people at TRIVOC who really believes in the TRIVOC mission to improve the world. And if you think back of how cars was 50 years ago. And if he wasn't born back then, then look it up in the history books because that's probably The point where electronic devices start entering the car industry. And if you look at a car today, the major Part of a car is actually software. And it will take quite a while before buildings are at the same level. And we believe they will be. I see a lot of interest from building owners and also people who maintain buildings And also people who lives in buildings that they really look forward to buildings be more clever and will give us a better indoor environment. So this is something we have to be patient about and it takes 5 to 7 years from an idea of building something new until it's So these things do not move very quickly. And you have to move in. You have to move the whole culture We also need to be patient. Thank you, Jorg. So I suggest that polyester. Okay. Thank you. I hope you can hear me. Question number 1 on guidance. You mentioned during the presentation that you were pleased with the acceleration of revenue growth from Q1 to Q2. But if I look at the guidance first half versus implicit second half, then you're sequentially down, actually quite a decent amount. Can you tell you something on what you see when looking into the second half that you Yes, I can talk into that. So actually the last thing I talked about in the potential deconsolidation, of course, that will also have an impact. We don't know exactly When and if we succeed on that. So based on that, we do see the opportunity Or chance that we will not have the same growth or have the revenue from that business unit. Secondly, you'd say We did see a slow growth in Q2 last year. So So also the margins or improvement in this year is based on we have a lower base in 2020. So all in Q2. Yes, in Q2. So we had more stronger growth came back in Q3 and Q4 last year. So the deconsolidation of Dawn Health is part of the guidance already? And expected deconsolidation is part of the guidance, yes. Can you help us by indicating how much Don Health provide an annual revenue to the numbers in case that you are not consolidating so that We know how much to potentially take. Unfortunately, we cannot do that right now, but we will do so when we can publish more information about this. But I guess, Christian, we can say that Dawn Health is a separate legal entity. It does report separate Financial reports. But at this point in time, there is no disclosure of revenue. And so we can do it, but you can probably figure a lot out by just studying the Company, because now we have identified the company and the business unit we are talking about. Okay. Thank you. Second question is about the attrition rates and how you just look at the market for hiring people. Can see that your wages are up 14% on average. That's a simple average by number and wage cost. So how is attrition performing and can you get the resources you need? The short answer, I mean, attrition, we're very happy with attrition. We're not happy with the market. Basically, there's simply not enough people on the market. I think any tech company you will ask I would say the same. And it's an unhappy situation if tech companies just start to recruit from each other And everyone will actually lose. So the best thing that can happen is simply to figure out How to train and educate more people because that they are high in demand. And this is also why you can see a pressure on salaries. So, the thinking hat is on how to come through this. But also, I would say the COVID Stimulus from the governments around the world has not helped at all. It's just putting even more pressure On inflation, and this is what we start to see here also in the workforce. I think the world has been Overstimulated and this is what you see in the tech sector. But you can get the people you need to grow, let's say, 15% organic? Yes, we have the yes, this we have. But now we see more opportunities that we can say yes to Because we cannot get the people. And also, we have had 23% in ARROWs growth since 2007. And this is also what we This is what we guide mid term on. So it's so this year will be probably The first 6 months shows that we are above that, but we also have some challenges. There's never just Happy year where everything is easy. We have the challenges is getting people and keeping salaries in a controlled way. Coming back to the guidance and about it, I think you mentioned in the report that you can potentially do some I thought that that is not included in the guidance if you're doing that And the inorganic guidance growth, inorganic guidance growth this year is 9 only, I guess. Inorganic growth in 2021 is 9 up till September and then it's a Belia acquisition we did in Switzerland from May and the remaining part of the year. So you're right, we have not included any new acquisitions in the guidance. Okay. Thank you. I will step back for now to see if there are others who want to ask questions. Thank you. Thank you, Paul. Mats is the next one of your question. If you could introduce yourself quickly. Yes. My name is Mats. I work as an equity analyst at Carnegie. And I cover Trayvorg. So my first question is on your guidance, Dan, because I think I'm missing a bit here because if you look At your high end range, it only requires you to grow 16% this year compared to H2 last year. And for me, I would say that quarter 4, 2020 stands out as a very easy comparison. So Is this fact that you're not able to change your high end of the guidance range is only due to this potential deconsolidation of downhole? That would be my first question. Okay. In the last for second half of twenty twenty, it was actually not That much impacted by COVID. Q2, we were as mentioned here before. So we actually did See normal growth in Q2 2020. So yes, the guidance we have for now is impacted By this deconsulation, but and also I mean as Jorgen said, we do have challenges in relation to recruiting, etcetera. So we might not keep up the speed in this form of organic growth. Okay. But can you confirm that the organic growth quarter 4 last year was, let's say, downward of 120%. Pardon me once more? Can you confirm that the organic Growth in quarter 4 last year was around minus 20%. Yes, I will have to locate it. Okay, perfect. Thanks. Then I have one question on the Inspire segment. Because I guess the results in Q2 was positively impacted by this And I can see that you stated in the report that you do not expect to host any official conferences The remaining part of the year. So first of all, the conferences in Berlin and Amsterdam both expected to be held in quarter 4. And then what will be the potential upside if you're able to host 1 or 2 physical conferences this year? Okay. So we already announced on our web pages that there will be a go to Copenhagen. However, having said that, the physical conferences that we will see this year and probably next year are Our mini versions of when we had a lot of revenue doing conferences. First of all, we have reduced the organization To adjust cost, you can say. And also the world is in a different place. People's willingness To travel is less, the mobility within speakers are less and we have actually Made the decision that we don't want to do big conferences again. We'd rather do smaller conferences, but focus on delivering high quality content for our YouTube channel. So, I don't see this year or next year that we will get back Revenue of $8,000,000 in doing conferences. This is not even in our Because the reason why we do conferences is to make sure that we technology wise are on the right track. And we found a very strong tool for figuring this out and that is our YouTube channel. However, our YouTube channel is not a huge revenue generator, Not now at least, but you can imagine if it's 10 times or 100 times bigger than it will be, but we are still quite away from that. All right. That makes sense. And then my last question, then I will jump back to queue. Have you increased the use of freelancers or subcontractors in the quarter. Compared to last year, it's a little reduced. So about 15%, 20% reduced compared to the same period last year. Okay. And what about quarter on quarter to quarter 1 compared to quarter 2? It's more or less the same. Okay, perfect. Thank you. We have no questions in the queue right now. Just as a reminder, press the hand button to raise your hand. There are 2 raised hands, 3 now. Dan? Mats, you like to come back? Matt, you're on again. Yes. Can you hear me now? Yes. Perfect. So one question on acquisitions. What is your M and A appetite at the moment Since you have plenty of financial room to do acquisitions? Well, that's the short answer. We have a high appetite for M and A. But you can also imagine that the M and A market is fairly hot and we really prefer to meet companies before Some broker has already been engaged because we see that if companies go into an auction, Dan, they become too expensive for us typically. So, we'd like to meet people before that. So if one of you have an idea for an acquisition for us, don't be shy. Please let us know. We have all ears and eyes open for M and A targets. All right. Noted. Thank you. Okay. We have another question from Serge Marlin. Please go ahead. Yes, good morning. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. Sorry, because I have some technical issues. Okay. Good morning, everybody. So I have a follow-up question here on growth. As you're targeting 10% to 15% organic growth, you should achieve at least next year about €160,000,000 How big is the visibility today to reach CENHOLD 106 next year? I know there's a story about the lead times, you're quick. Hi, Valisuki. Can you explain us a little bit about that with the first one? So if I understood the question correctly, It's related to the growth for the second half, right? No, for next year. I think instead of the second half, it's more or less in I would expect because we have only 4 months or 5 months to go. But the question is for next year. For the orders you got already, the Contracts you got already. How much of the sales of at least SEK 106,000,000 you have to reach by next year on organic growth? How much you have already in your books? Yes, but we don't disclose that information in any of the financial report. So it's a little hard to comment on. But we still maintain our mid term guidance. So this is the only thing we have guided on next year currently and of course we will later this year come up with a very close guidance on next year as well. I didn't understand the question. Okay. The next question on Inspire. You explained that you will have much lower sales this year and next year and probably also going forward. What does this mean then for the Yeah. Of Inspire. So, it means that The COVID situation has made us kind of replan how we See Inspire. So, as mentioned, the most important thing is to know if we are on the right track. If we have people from our competitors And colleagues in the field attending our session and watching our videos, that is a good sign. That is a sign That if we also follow what is 20 on our YouTube channel, then we are on the right track. So this is really important for us. And then we have to kind of reinvent the whole business into figuring out, okay, do we actually want Also this to be a profitable and growing business and how we're going to do that. So the intermediate step Has been the decision of doing hybrid events. So having conferences between you can say 250 to 500 people, But also broadcasting these conferences online in hybrid events because we believe that there are still people And also the whole remote workforce, there are some people who just want to stay on some beats somewhere in the world and do cool stuff. We want to serve them. This is why we are doing this. So it's going to be in person and remote at the same time. So We then need to figure out, okay, what kind of business model will this then support. But the good news is that It's not that expensive to do, so we will continue to do it. So now it's more a question, will we also be able to see Significant revenue from that. That's the question. And this is something we will report on later on again. And when we have Completed the year. We can tell you all about how it actually went in Copenhagen, which is a more ambitious Go to conference over the one we did in Aarhus just before summer. I hope that answers the question. I understand that it's difficult to get breakeven again in the future. So probably if you sense to move this into sense of marketing, this Correct. Well, no. I mean, I don't like to see conferences as marketing. This is not at all why we do it. We do it to make sure we're on the right track technology wise because we if we can we know how to get our customers. So, this is not why we do the conferences. And so, it's not marketing. It's actually very important that it's not marketing. You can say it's employee branding for new employees, which is very good, but it's not to attract Customers, it's not the same as we never get a customer at a conference, but it's not the goal at all. So it's important That is an independent conference where we are very objective to what we present and we keep very high level. So, People, they don't sneak in sales pitches to a product. That's not our style because this will Dilute the reason for us doing it. Okay. But we do have an ambition that we Don't want to lose money on it. So it's not like we use the excuse, oh, because we lose money on it, it's marketing. That's not what we want. We want to be at least breakeven because we also believe that people should pay for relevant content. It's very helpful, Manny. Thanks. And probably last one. I wrote down that you guided for the Labs business to have costs of between €900,000 to €1,500,000. Now we are already at €1,000,000 plus. So you still believe that the lab business will have a negative impact Up to minus SEK1.5 million or will this be larger? This is still the guidance that we have currently. We saw the higher cost due to additional proceeds that we saw from human rights, but we still expect to be within the guidance for the remaining part of the year. Okay, that's good. Many thanks and for the rest of the year. Thank you. We have a further question of Paul Jessen. Please go ahead. Yes. I think I'm unmuted now. It's just a few small ones. One is just clarification on the Go to conference. If we look you mentioned you're not going back to the last I was just thinking if you go out to 2023 and onwards, will you get back to the €8,000,000 In revenue or should we keep that number low because you changed the model? That's the first one. Yes, I'd like to answer that. We will certainly update you if we change strategy. So I would not expect a revenue of $8,000,000 for our GoTo Conferences the next 2 years. If we do, then it's Because something lucky happened and we will explain what happened. Now I don't see that. Okay. Then As part of your strategy, you positioned the U. S. As non core. But I think in this report, I count that you Three times talk about the U. S. Contracts and business. I was just wondering if you're putting more focus on the U. S. Market or is this is Just coincidence. Well, we are not doing strong business development in the U. S. So, it is an opportunistic market for us. What we do is that we are specialized in certain technologies And we are also world leader in certain technologies and that gives a kind of an inbound request for our services. So we do have a number of good brands in the U. S. That we work for because we are the expert on certain stuff. So That's how it is. Okay. And then the final one, that's the dual listing in Switzerland that was called off Just for interest, what was the reason and will you come back on that track? Yes. I can answer that, Christian. Because we did certainly plan for this. We also announced it and we also had the will to do it before summer. But what happened was that There was a special regulation preventing companies like Nestle from Trading all of the volumes in the share in other on other stock exchanges. So it was kind of protecting the Swiss market and the Swiss stock exchange. And we got kind of trapped in that rule, meaning that It would not be compliant if we did the double listing the way we had planned. However, this rule is running out by the end of the year Might be replaced by exactly the same rule or it might also be changed. But there are some politicians And the authorities are discussing between themselves, what to do. And we just Sit back and see, because it is our impression that is our view that this was not intended for a situation like we had. And we are in ongoing dialogue with the authorities in relation to make sure that They know about the situation and that they can implement a change in the law so that we can actually list. Okay. Thank you. That's all. Another question in the queue from Matt. Yes. Hi, just one follow-up question from my side. You mentioned a few times in the report. So I was wondering what is back into your current margin guidance in terms of inflation? So is it Jakob asking now? This is Mats from Carnegie. Sorry, Christian, can you take that? Yes. I mean in relation to the guidance we have, It's set to our expectations for salary increases, etcetera. I mean, we cannot set a fixed point to Exactly how much it will be, but this is including in the ongoing forecast that we have from all our business units in relation to how they Expect the future salary cost to be in the remaining part of 2021. Okay. So just to be clear, the growth And you've seen salary increases in, for example, quarter 2 is also what you expect in Q3 and Q4 this year? Yes. Okay, perfect. Thank you. I have one question in writing here for Jarm. Can we be more specific about where the upper limits are for us to pay for a company and maybe a little bit more details About what kind of company we are looking for? Yes. I mean, we have disclosed in the IPO process that we In the past, we have acquired companies in the area of EBITDA multiple of 10. And that is I mean we would be happy if we love a company. We would be happy to buy that multiple if it's Growing and profitable and everything. And if there is probably a trend that it's a bit higher, But there can also be opportunities where it is that number because if there are synergies between This company and us, then there might be good reason for the seller to sell to us rather than getting a higher price selling Someone else. This we have also seen. So we might have to go a little bit up, but not necessarily. And what kind of companies? Yes. So we are pursuing end to end capabilities Because we believe that a software vendor like Trifox should be able to update the software multiple times a day for our customer systems. That means that we need to control the whole build pipeline from ideation to operation and security. So in the various countries, we still need to add more capabilities. Right now, We you can say work across borders, but it would be an advantage to have the full stack, The end to end capabilities in the markets that are in our core, if that answers your question. So that means in some countries it's designed, in others It's running an operation. That's also why we made a big effort to add an ops center in Switzerland because it is the foundation for Building Systems to our customers. Jan, we have another question from Serge Martin again. Please go ahead. Yes, good morning again. I have a follow-up question on acquisition as well. If I'm right, you are quite September, so it's another 10 days or 2 weeks and then this is done. So from that point, there is no Growth from acquisition, is this correct? As I expect, Veolia does not generate any material growth. Can you help me there? Yes, Wilier will still contribute in the second half of twenty twenty one. But you're right, end of September, 9 acquisitions will not be reported as an inorganic growth anymore. So what did you say, how much is the contribution of Renea? We have not disclosed that. Okay. But then as a conclusion, there is no non organic sales from September 3, is this correct or no material. Only the one from Melia, Which is not significant compared to the overall revenue. Okay. Probably a follow-up. How long does it take you to make an acquisition? So from this due diligence process again and where are you currently I mean a typical process can be done in less than 3 months. Okay. And then what's about your shortlist? Have your companies on the shortlist that you would believe you could do this in 3 months? At this, we have not disclosed in the report and cannot concretely talk about. And the reason for that is that something can look Extremely positive and we can be very close. But at the end, it falls apart because of some detail. And so, it would be I think it would be wise for us to have high hopes. It's done when it's done. So we'd rather be thought when these Great. Fully agreed. That's fine. Thank you so much. There are no further questions in the queue right now. Jorn, would you like to make some closing remarks? Yes. So thank you everyone for listening in and asking really good questions. And also please send us a request if you want us to add and disclose more information In the future, so we will certainly consider that. It is our aim to be as transparent as possible. So with this, I'd really like to thank you all for coming and joining and hope to see you next time again.