Good morning and thank you very much for joining us for the Manz AG's conference call regarding the publication of the financial figures for the first nine months of 2023. First, CEO Martin Drasch and CFO Manfred Hochleitner will give you an overview on the operational and financial development in 2023 so far. Afterwards, you will have the opportunity to ask your questions. To ask a question, please raise your hand. Use the feature of Microsoft Teams, which you can find on the upper navigation bar. As standard setting, the option to turn on your camera and unmute your microphone has been disabled. We will call on people to ask their questions and unlock their camera and microphone options. Please make sure to unmute your microphone yourself as soon as the option has been unlocked, but I will explain you later on again.
In addition, you can, of course, also use the chat function and send us your questions. One last point before we start with the conference call, please note that this conference call is being recorded. I would like now to hand over to Martin Drasch and Manfred Hochleitner.
Thank you, Axel. Also from my side, good morning, and warm welcome to our presentation, today. We start, as usual, with an overview about our KPI development, of the nine months figures compared to the nine months figures in 2022. As you can see, we have a shortage in the order intake, like we have also communicated already, that here is a reluctance actually in the industry, visible also through all industries where we are in. We see that also our partners and, competition is facing the same issues. Nevertheless, and I will go into the depth, in these topics for the sales a little bit later. We see, a good development in our perspective in regards of opportunities and leads development, and also with our existing and new customers, we see that we will face here an improvement in the near future.
On the revenue levels, you see that also due to the low order intake in the first nine months, even we have an improvement in the revenues of 1.9%, we are facing here an impact out of the lower order intake, also in the revenues here. Nevertheless, our performance in the EBIT figures really improved also in the area of the material ratios. We see that we had an improvement here compared to the last year, and also some good news on the cash and cash equivalents, where we had an increase compared to last quarter, even though the number is going down compared to the nine months, but also here are measures already in action, and Manfred Hochleitner will give you the further details afterwards.
That's from my side for the beginning, a short overview about the KPIs, and I will now hand over to Manfred, who will give you some insights on our financial figures.
Thank you, Martin. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. As usual, we will first have a look on the income statement before we move on to the different results of the divisions, followed by the balance sheet and the cash flow statement. We achieved revenues in an amount of EUR 195 million, so we remain more or less on a similar level as in the first nine months last year, so a slight increase of 1.9%. The total operating performance, mainly driven by our progress in the IPCEI project, was slightly lower than last year due to the supply of finished goods, so the supply of finished goods could not fully be compensated by our progress in the IPCEI project.
So in total, we achieved a total operating performance of EUR 208.6 million. The other operating income went down by EUR 6 million, mainly due to significantly lower gains on exchange rates compared to the first nine months of last year. Compared to last year, that's the good news, the material cost ratio improved a lot and reached 53% compared to more than 60% of last year. This is mainly driven by, we see a stable, more or less stable supply chain again, and a different mixture of projects in execution. Personnel expenses, so the normal increase, headcount is more or less stable compared to the end of 2022.
So the increase in personnel expenses is mainly driven by the normal salary increases and a little bit different personnel structure, so more headcounts in high-cost countries compared to lower headcounts in low-cost countries. The other operating expenses were roughly EUR 6 million lower than last September. The main reasons are lower losses from exchange rates, lower royalties, and also and it's very important, effects from our global cost saving program, which is mainly accounted under the other operating expenses. In total, the EBITDA increased strongly by EUR 10 million and reached EUR 18.2 million as a level of our EBITDA, which is very healthy. And this increase could also be maintained for the EBIT and the net result of the first nine months, 2023.
So we achieved a consolidated net profit of EUR 6.9 million. On a quarterly basis, we see the delay in order intakes. The revenues in the Q3 were clearly below the Q3 of last year, and consequently, also, the EBIT in the Q3 reached a break-even level last year. The high other operating income led also to a stronger EBIT compared to the Q3 of this year. Taking a look now on the divisions. We start first with the segment Mobility and Battery Solutions. So the revenues of the division Mobility and Battery Solutions grew only very slightly and were significantly below our expectations. The main reason, as we already mentioned, is mainly driven by the low order intakes in the past months, and also driven by the uncertainties regarding the inflation, interest, and subsidy programs in the US.
Due to the positive impact of the share swap and a significantly better material cost ratio, the EBIT at the end of September was, despite of the low revenues in the Q1, still much better than last year. Looking forward, talking about perspective, so Martin will give you further insights later on, but we have seen now that after European customers made their experiences with the highly aggressive competitors from China, they have also seen that also Chinese competitors, as soon as they cannot only ramp up their standard machines, they have problems in ramping up production lines. They have a high scrap rate, so the first costs of low prices for machines was then overcompensated by high scrap rates.
This is the reason why we see more and more interest in sales leads for production solutions provided not only by our DGM Corporation, but also by ourselves as standalone Manz solutions. We are confident that we could also compensate, at least partially, delays in order intake over the last six months with these new perspectives. In the segment Industry Solutions, the revenues were almost on the same level as last year. Although we see increasing interest in our automation solutions in Germany and Europe, we have a very weak market condition in Asia right now, so this market is strongly going down, and this could not be compensated by the strong revenues in our automation business.
So there in Asia, we have, of course, new opportunities in new markets, so we are looking for new opportunities there. So we are more and more increasing our footprint in the chip market, in the high-tech packaging solutions, and this includes also applications in the aerospace industry. So having a look on the balance sheet, we see that the balance sheet total decreased by EUR 40 million, roughly, compared to the end of 2022. The non-current assets increased, mainly due to the effects of the share swap, and in contrary, the current assets went down by EUR 47 million, driven mainly by lower assets and lower cash and cash equivalents as a result of the already mentioned late order intake.
Compared to the end of June, and that's the good news, the cash position, position improved by EUR 3 million and reached now EUR 10.7 million. On the liability side, current liabilities came down by EUR 43 million, mainly due to the decrease of contract liabilities. The equity ratio increased by 5.4 percentage points and reached now 35.1%. Although still on a high level, the net debt improved also by six months, by six million euros compared to the end, of the Q2 of this year. This brings me now to the cash flow statement. The negative cash flow from operating activities improved by EUR 5 million compared to the end of June.
However, the decrease of liabilities led mainly due to the negative result of the operating cash flow, which could only partially be compensated by the positive reduction on the asset side. The pre-financing of the IBCI project led to the negative cash flow from financing from investing activities in an amount of EUR 4.4 million. These negative cash flows were partially financed by higher usage of banking lines and by a reduction of cash compared to the beginning of 2023, so that at the end of September, our cash and current cash equivalents amounted to EUR 10.7 million, and as already mentioned, this is improvement by EUR 3 million compared to the end of June, with various measures, including also a focus on working capital management.
Aside from the already high, and still increasing activities to increase the order intake again, we have started flanking measures to reorganize and increase our financing instruments in the group. In this context, we expect also an additional cash inflow of roughly EUR 11.5 million out of the execution of a put option of our shares in customer sales holding. We executed this put option on October nineteenth and expect the respective cash inflow within 20 banking days. So far, the overview of our financial results, and now, hand now back to Martin for further insights in strategy and outlook. Thank you so far.
Thank you, Manfred. We start with our strategic overview and focus. As you know, we, as a high-tech machine manufacturer, are really forcing for innovative solutions and put them into growth markets and really striving here for a foundation for a future worth living. This is the clear vision we have in the company, which we are also accordingly depend and rely on our strategy. Strategy is also clear in our two divisions. In the division MBS, we clearly focus on the lithium-ion battery market and for the production equipment and want to become here one of the top suppliers in EU and US for this equipment, and also for Industry Solutions based on our bright and really wide technology focus and equipment providing we can use here.
We want to be here a clear solution provider for electronic components and, devices. The principles you can see down there, and I want to talk a little bit more today about the opportunities in the growth markets and also the challenges we are facing here. But, we are convinced that with, with our strategy in these markets where we are in, we are on the right path, and even though we have some shortages actually in the order intake situation, the markets and the products we can deliver are really valuable, and we will see here in the future, from our point of view, a huge growth potential, which also then will, will be reflected in the future in the growth of the company.
Let's start with the production systems and give you a focus which components we will deliver with our equipment, machines, and solutions. This is our picture of a car, and mainly you can see here where we want to step in and where we are already stepped in with our machines and equipment. First of all, biggest opportunity is the entire battery segment, with the battery cells and as well the modules and packs, but also the necessary inverters and electronic components you need in the entire powertrain and battery package area. There is a huge increase necessary to deliver the necessary amount of cars and e-cars and also hybrid cars.
There is a huge demand and increase, and therefore also the necessity to a higher automation of the production of such equipment's, as well as you have seen the displays in the cars getting bigger and bigger, no more buttons in some of the cars, especially cars coming from China and the Asian markets. Here, it's really a touch system in the cars, but also the necessary sensors for cameras, LiDARs, and topics like that are clearly on a growth potential way. And we see here with our solutions a good possibility to have a further understanding. As you can see, with our solutions, we want to optimize the processes and also the precision of the tools and to reduce the scrap also here for sustainability.
We see here clear advantages if we have our products with our customers, and also, as much Manfred already mentions, our supply chain gets better and better, and therefore, we see also improvement in the time to market. That there, the time is getting shorter, which improves then also for us, the capability to bring the necessary revenues and profits. Going to the next part, and I want to talk a little bit about the opportunities in the e-mobility and electronics industry in the growth markets where we are in here. And, as you have seen in the last weeks and months, we have proven our strong position in the market by getting some new customers in. And also, you have seen we have a new order for battery modules line for prismatic cells.
Also, here we are in discussions with the customer for the next lines. He is interested to have not only in the home market where he's in, he also have interests in having further lines in the U.S. and as well in Australia. Here we are actually in discussions and plannings with this customer, but also for the tier market, we have achieved some good order intakes with renowned suppliers for the automotive industry, for inverter solutions, where we do the assembly of entire inverters and also the integration into the systems.
And also, even the market, actually, in the Asian area, especially in China and Thailand, is actually still under pressure to get some new customers and also some follow-up orders for our now improved and really well-known and accepted Fan-Out Panel-Level Packaging technology in the semi area, which is a clear statement from our customer side, that the first lines that are now in production are really good and help them to improve their cost structure and their time to market. And therefore, we are here in this markets already established. We have delivered already the first tools, and we see with our customers, we have an help. And also the other one, which we are actually in discussion with, I have high interest to realize this month, the equipment and have a growth with us today.
Therefore, and that's the clear focus from our strategy, with these markets where we are in, and the technologies we have, and the product, solutions we offer for our customer, we see that we have a huge and good growth potential in these markets and as well for the near future. A little bit more deep on the battery cell production. We showed this, slide already last time, and also during our, capital market day and before we had our tech day with our customers, where we showed them our production equipment, especially for the battery market, and, could show them our developments also coming out of the IPCEI program, where we have developed some new processes and machines. Saying that, it's clearly also here shown that, you have seen the first wave, which was from 2020 to this year.
The main focus for the build-up of equipment was in Asia. Only a lower part of the production facilities has been established in Europe and America. This will change now for phase two, where we are actually in discussions with some of our customers, and really here in the area of Europe and as well of North America and Canada.
We're having good meetings for the planning of such lines for this wave two, and we have good arguments with our developments we have showed to the customers during our tech days, especially in the area of cell assembly for prismatic cells, and also with our setup, we have here in our cooperation with Manz Power and Build, where we can offer the entire value chain from coating until the formation and aging of cells, and as well, the module and pack integration of such lines. So we are actually focused on this wave two, where we have a high focus in Europe and also then in North America. What we also see is that this will go on until end of 2030, out of the plannings of our customers and the discussions we have with them.
Besides that, also here, the technology really moves forward as we are actually in the area of wet produced lithium-ion technologies. We also see now that the all-solid-state and the dry technology is now moving ahead, so in 3 to 5 years, we think that this technology is already ready to be integrated into the market and into tests and is bringing them really an advantage in the energy density and as well, the production efficiency of such cells.
Nevertheless, this is really a good solution for months, as the difference in the production process for this all-solid-state battery is not too much difference between the lithium-ion technology, which actually in place, and therefore we see also a future possibility in the renewable solutions we can offer them for the existing lines, bringing our technologies then, and having, let's say, new use for these lines that are now installed for the next generation of technology. So what you can see here, it's really an interesting market where we are in exactly asking for the solutions which Manz can provide, and therefore we see here also a huge growth potential for Manz and its partners inside.
The cell production of batteries, not only the lithium-ion batteries, also in the middle- and long-term strategy, the all-solid-state battery will be here an important product in this market. As I mentioned before, not only the battery cells, also in Industry Solutions, where we do the assembly lines, fully automated with artificial intelligence and solutions we can provide to increase also here the OEE and have a better scrap rate than the competition. We see a huge growth in PV market for the inverter lines. And, as you can see here, this is our assumption we have made, based on the survey on the market.
We see here a base scenario, but in the average, we see a growth of 11% from 2024 to 2030, and this is really also depending then on the development of the sales of electric EV cars in the different markets where we are in. We see also here a huge demand from our already now existing customers to transfer these technologies into other markets, meaning also the North American market and as well, the Asian market is coming here into our focus for such high automated lines, which we are delivering here. You see roughly the range for investments is around EUR 500 to 900 million.
This is a huge market, and also here we are stepping in with our solutions and as well, specifically the laser solutions we can provide here is a huge advantage we can really offer to our customers in this direction. Coming to the market outlook, also in the Asian area, as you know, we are focusing here after the display industry is really now on a low, low level. We changed already three years ago, our strategy into the semiconductor area.
Here in the back-end area, we invested a lot in plating technologies, which is necessary base technology for our FOPLP technology, which we offer now successfully to different customers in the market, and where we really see a huge demand coming up, also from really big players in the market, looking on this technology and having here a clear focus for their next installation step to really integrate this into their back-end solutions. Because as mentioned already, the cost advantages of this production solution, FOPLP, is huge, and also the productivity and output of the line is much higher than to the wafer technology, which is actually in the market.
As well, even there was a quiet downturn in 2022 and 2023 in the semiconductor market, we see also now here a revival of the market coming up for 2024, and we expect here in this market, it's a huge market, but we also focus here only on the back-end area, a growth of approximately 5% in this market. Also with our solutions, we are actually developing in the digital printing area. We see some opportunities and have already some lab tools ready, which we are actually discussing the first integration into production lines with huge customers in Asia for digital printing solutions, also in the IC substrate, but also in the area of printing technologies and electronics blocking and products.
Coming to the sales opportunities and our pipeline, we have here and before I go a little bit more in depth, I want to talk a little bit and explain a little bit about challenges in the industry, actually, especially in the automotive industry and battery industry, which we are facing actually, because also we were wondering why we have this huge delay in the placement of orders, and we discussed this with our customers and partners, as well. What is the reason and why we have these postponements and a lot of changes during the planning and also calculation of these orders, which we faced the last two quarters. And mainly, there are four topics, challenges, to be named.
The first one is that our customers are really facing a lack of experience in these markets and in these technologies. And, the other side also, they have not enough experienced employees, which can help them and support them to make the right specification, do the right designs in, in their products. This is one of the parts and, issues, we are actually seeing here. The other one is the business case. I think that's also clear. We are focusing here on European markets and the North American market, so there is a business plan topic, and also named already and addressed the politics. The energy costs are here, a driver, which then, at the end of the day, causes some headaches for our customers, but also material cost and delivery of material is actually quite difficult.
The third topic we get out of our survey is that the bureaucracy and the long permission for getting the permission to build our fabs and get the necessary information from the government in these areas takes really, really long time, and longer than they expect from the beginning. And therefore, we see here some delays, then also in the placement of the deals. And also, there is a big topic in the capability of our customers to raise the necessary fundings for these huge investments we are facing here. And in this combination, and I want to clearly state also, these are not problems for me, these are challenges.
They can be handled, and that's an offer from one side, clearly, to our customers, that we support them in this direction, to support them also in their experience with the long and really good experience one has for the different production capabilities and process steps to accelerate this process, and this is warmly welcome from our customers. But at the end, it's really a challenge for them to get all these topics handled, as they are not used to handle these topics in a new industry, and therefore we see some delay in the project start in the realization, and therefore we also face these delayed deals. But the good news is, it's really a delay.
It's not really that they don't realize these projects, but that's a little bit our survey and explanation why we see actually these delays as well in Industry Solutions and also in MBS. When on the other hand, and this is then showing this graph here, is we have a huge and a really good pipeline in our two divisions, in Mobility and Battery Solutions. We have a pipeline of roughly EUR 580 million in the different stages of projects, so coming from needs and RFQs from our customer, until then our stage three, where we have already placed an order and on the final negotiations. And we see here, out of our top five customers, opportunity in the next months is of EUR 140 million.
As mentioned already during the capital market day, some are really in the final stage of decisions on modifications. Already came up, and we are looking forward here to receiving very soon then the order intake, which we are already discussed and talked about in the last weeks. Also, in Industry Solutions, in these directions, we have a very good pipeline. Already here we are in the stage of final negotiations with some of our customers and awaiting the final decision.
We are good positioned here with our experience, and overall pipeline of EUR 480 million, and with the top five customers, roughly EUR 120 to 130 million of revenue and order intake we expect here, and also have a huge portfolio of other customers, new customers we are actually in discussion with, and that's also ... Here, the challenges Manz is facing, that we have a lot of hot topics and hot projects actually in the discussion, and our sales department is fully loaded, gets a lot of support from the other areas and departments, that we can handle this huge amount of projects we are actually having in the different stages of our pipeline discussion, here.
So far for a short overview and explanation due to the delays we are facing and the opportunities we see in the near and middle future. Coming to the order intake and order backlog overview. As you can see, order intake in mobility and battery solution nearly half of the comparison numbers of 2022. In industry solutions, same picture, EUR 83 to 84 million, nearly 15% lower than last year, and that's then also the picture for the entire group. Good thing is that we have a good order backlog from last year.
and the order intake we have achieved here, so overall in MBS, EUR 77 million until the end of September 30, 2023, as order backlog, and in Industry Solutions, roughly EUR 108 million, order backlog, and an overall backlog of EUR 185 million, which is then also leading us into a good situation regarding the revenues which are in the future coming, or especially here in Q4. Coming then to our guidance for 2023. We keep our guidance, and we see an increase in revenues in the lower double-digit % range.
The EBITDA margin we see is a positive single-digit % range, and the EBIT in the low positive single-digit % range, even though we see our numbers in the guidance in the lower segment as fulfilled and realization in this area is, from our side, foreseen in this direction. So far from our side, and now we are looking forward to receive your questions. Thank you.
So, thank you, Martin. Thank you, Manfred, for your presentation. And like Martin already explained, you now have the opportunity to ask your questions. To do so, I would like to remind you to use the Raise Hand feature of Microsoft Teams, and then later on, I will unmute you, and you have to unmute your microphone as well, and then you can go ahead with your questions. So I see that there is one question from Mr. Witzcar, and Mr. Witzcar, you should now be able to unmute yourself and ask your question.
Yes, good morning. I hope you can hear me. I have three questions. Maybe we can take them one by one. The first one is, on the grants you have received in the Q3 of EUR 10 million. That obviously also had to improve your cash position. It would be interesting to know what exactly do these, payments or grants, depends on, and, what is the expected amount, of grants for the final quarter?
So this mainly grants or subsidies coming from the IPCEI project, which we received. So it's a typical progress payment on the subsidy program. That means we have some expansions of our work here, and this, of course, is connected with costs, which we first have to cover. And quarter by quarter, we can then forward these costs, document these costs, and hand it over to the respective government and the departments, and then they check it, and then we get the grants. So typical subsidy program payments, which we receive there. So depending on our progress, and you have seen that there is still a pre-financing of roughly EUR 3 to 4 million by end of Q3. So we expect that we will get this money in until end of the year.
Then, of course, we have some further spendings in the Q4, which we will then get back in at the end of the Q1, beginning of Q1 next year.
Okay. I think that's clear. And the second one is, on your Q3 EBIT in Mobility and Battery Solutions, and maybe you can remind us, what was the exact amount, related to the, Britishvolt order cancellations? I think that was significant in the Q2, and maybe you have the number for us, you have, yeah, booked here in the Q3.
Amount is significantly lower. It's only EUR 3 million, and it's only, I would say, a partial compensation of the loss which we had. We should not forget that overall, there was an order intake of EUR 90 million coming from Britishvolt, so this was, of course, revenue and margin, and therefore, we can only-- we could only compensate a relatively small portion compared to the loss of the huge order backlog of EUR 90 million, which we had there.
Okay, fine. And my third one, regarding Volkswagen. During your capital markets day, you mentioned the promising discussions with VW. Can you please give us an update what the current situation is here, and what is also the potential timeline for project, and also with the estimated time of contract award, if you expect one?
So, as mentioned, we had a meeting with our cooperation during whole months, and as you know, in Salzgitter, there is a huge installation actually in the realization, and the customer, like Manfred already mentioned before, awarded for a huge part of this first step of the realization of this battery equipment, the orders to a Chinese competitor of us, and the progress is strongly delayed, roughly 18 months delayed. And there is an opportunity for the cooperation, and it's here, our chance to step in and to show that European, and as well here in this direction, German technology and solutions are really competitive. In technology-wise, we have no doubt. Cost-wise, we are facing some challenges here. We had really first good, fruitful meetings with the purchasing department.
There, as I could not participate personally due to the Capital Market Day, there will be now a follow-up order in the next two weeks in Mittelheim and Hope, where we will have further discussions. Technically wise, we are already in a good position, and there we expect then the exact date for the order placement. Actually, I expect it end of the year, beginning of the year, that we have all discussions then finalized for this line, and this order will then already be the first really new project besides the Daimler Truck order we are already executing with the partners in the corporation. Then the first target we have with Volkswagen to get this then in all the intake for the corporation and spend it on the corporation.
This brings us then into the position that also for the next installations, that for we standing, we have the feet in the door, and we are really looking forward for the next discussions. But all the intake, I expect end of the year, beginning of next year.
Okay. So probably quicker than expected.
I think, yeah, hopefully, yes. The pressure is huge on their side. I think, yes, time is of essence, and-
Okay.
They also realize that they have maybe to change something to be a little bit faster in the market and rely on experienced and as well-known companies like BMW and Manz, which they already did a lot of good business in the past. And we are really looking forward for these discussions and hoping that we can really convince all the necessary institutions in Volkswagen about our cooperation, and especially the performance and possibilities of Manz here.
Okay, and maybe how many lines are here in discussions for the potential first order?
Actually, we are talking here about one line. It's roughly 2.5 gigawatt line. It's a so-called sample line, which we are actually in discussion here with them, as mentioned, as the others are already all from Chinese competitors, and we have the chance to step here in.
Okay, perfect. Thank you, gentlemen.
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Utzer. We also have a question from Mr. Bauer from Metzler. Mr. Bauer, you should also be able to unmute yourself now to ask your question.
Yes, hello, everyone. I actually have three questions. The first one is on the operating cash flow. So despite the positive performance in the Q3, the operating cash flow was still significantly negative in the first nine months of the year. So maybe can you share your expectation for the operating cash flow for Q4 or for the full year? And then, looking ahead to next year, what's actually your goal when it comes to the operating cash flow? That would be my first question. The second question is, how much of your current order backlog of EUR 185 million is actually expected to be converted into revenue next year? And, then my last question is on pricing.
As you stated in your press release, your customers have become more cautious when signing contracts. Can we therefore assume that price negotiations have become much tougher than in the past? That would be it so far.
Thank you, Mr. Bauer. First, regarding the operating cash flow, you can see when you have a look at the cash flow statement, that, of course, the operating cash flow is for sure influenced by the net profit or by net loss after taxes. But, the main volatility comes out of the balance sheet, and on the current assets and liabilities side. So, this is our focus right now. Of course, we are working on decreasing inventories. Again, we are still on a very high level. This has to do something with the supply chain issues which we had last year. That's one component. Another one is that we have a delay from one customer in the contract manufacturing.
We had a lot of inventories on stock for this customer, and step by step, these inventories are going down again. Again, it comes down also to getting new orders in and to account the respective down payments there under contract liabilities first. This will also be tremendously helpful for the operating cash flow. So depending on new order intakes, we think that we could further improve the operating cash flow in the Q4 with the new orders I had, which we expect to come in the next weeks. Of course, for 2024, we target again to have a positive operating cash flow.
I think this is nothing surprising here, but of course, as we already have discussed now many times here in this call, the main driver is there, not only executing our projects on hand in the right way, but also getting a constant inflow of new orders in there, so to keep also the assets and the liabilities under the cash flow statement on a reasonable level.
Okay.
Coming to your second question regarding the revenue, we actually have almost all the backlogs. We have some projects where we are actually in discussion with the customers regarding the stock they have provided. So, actually, we plan that also these projects will restart, but actually, we are on a planning phase of 70 to 80% of this backlog that can be realized in 2024. Also, we have some projects where the finalization, especially in Asia, the SAT dates are delayed here due to the planning of the customers. So there's a delivery of the equipment, and they have then a time period of 6 to 12 months until they provide an SAT, and we can support them in this ramp-up phase, paid from their side.
But the finalization of the project is then also one year delayed, and having this into account, I would say roughly 70 to 80% of the backlog can be realized then in 2024. Your third question regarding negotiations and price, like I tried to explain, the topic of price for sure is always also a discussion about prices, but this is not the main focus. It's really depending on technologies, about specifications, changes, timelines. These are actually more or less the really topics where projects which are already in the end phase of a discussion come back again. You can imagine if the size of a cell, for example, on the electrical parts of an inverter or a process change in a wet chemistry change , this has a huge impact on the equipment.
Also, the necessary processes get changed from whatever ultrasonic welding process to a laser process. New tests need to be made. This is here 70 to 80% the reasons for delay. Price-wise, for sure, already, like I mentioned, it's a topic, but due to the fact that we are facing here the situation that the supply chain market really gets now released, a lot of companies build up a strong and big storage area, and we see already from the delivery time, especially for the components out of the electronic segments, like PLCs, really good delivery time and also reduction on price and on components.
So, saying that, yes, there is trouble on the one hand and pressure from the customer on the negotiation side, but not too strong, and we have the chance then to also give this pressure to our suppliers and negotiate with them better prices, so that we don't see here actually a big issue, but always in the machinery business, it's a topic, but actually not the really driving point for delaying the project.
Okay. That was very helpful. Thank you very much.
Welcome.
Okay, so I have seen that Mr. Pehl has written his questions in the chat. I unmute yourself now, or I unmute you, Mr. Pehl, in case you want to talk to us. If not, then, of course, I can also take your question in the chat function.
No, that's, that's fine. I can speak. The only thing is I have a cold at the moment, so I hope you can hear me well.
Okay.
All right. So, thanks. There was already a clarification a bit on the backlog, part of my question that I posted in chat, but let me just come back to that. So given that order intake was close to revenues, but you show order backlog somewhere in the range of EUR 185 million, should we assume that there was some correction to order backlog? That's my first question. The other question, more housekeeping-wise, is related to the operating expenses, which you were referring to in the presentation already, coming down quite nicely. Could you give us an update, actually, on cost cutting for Q4 on this line or maybe in general, and what are your plans beyond? And then I might have a couple of follow-up questions.
Okay. So, first of all, regarding the backlog, actually, we are not aware of any cancellations, and we have no discussions with customers about cancellations. As I mentioned before, they have these challenges in regards of okay, my land permits are not given, I have to find a new slot and so on, and therefore, we have a delay in already some placed orders. Others are related to technical decisions or financing decisions. But, coming back to your questions, we have no discussions, actually, about any cancellations of placed orders for months. And therefore, I expect, and that's what I'm trying to reflect in the number of 70 to 80%, that we plan a little bit conservative in this direction, but that's also an opportunity.
If we come then to a conclusion, if some topics get solved from the customer side, also, we have the opportunity then, and this 185 million can become then a revenue for 2024, despite the topics which I mentioned, where we have longer lead time periods to SAT, this will not be changed. But that's, that's from, from my point of view, the situation we have here, and to give you also a clear answer, and I think that was the background of your question about cancellation risks, and that's what we actually don't see, and we are, as mentioned, not in one discussion with the customer about the cancellation.
Okay. So talking about the other operating expenses, I think, as you already said, it's more a housekeeping thing. When you see that there is a delayed order intake, and there is only a normal thing that you again turn all the stones here in the company and see what you can find below.
... to reduce the other operating expenses. As you said, the amount came down very nicely compared to the first nine months last year. Of course, there are less losses from exchange rate differences in there and less royalties paid, but nevertheless, we see also the cost-cutting impacts there. So, this is a normal thing, so we go through all the positions in the other operating expenses, starting from traveling costs, consulting fees, legal fees, and all these things here. This will continue for sure also in the coming three months, or in the running three months, I have to say, because we're already in November. It's almost end of the year, so not only December, but also in January. This is why I say in the coming three months.
Yeah, I think that the ratio between other operating expenses and total operating performance will remain on such a level. I do not expect that they will decrease a lot now in the last six weeks of this year. So the overall ratio will be the same. No special impact there as an additional positive, I would say, impact on cutting additional costs there under other operating expenses.
Thanks for that. Sorry, I have to come back to the, to the backlog part of my question. So you showed by the end of June, EUR 221.3 million order backlog. And forgive me if I've got something wrong there, but order intake was broadly in line, in line with sales in the Q3. So basically, the order backlog should not have changed, but obviously, you're showing a lower number. That was where my question was coming from. Is that... Was it a clear question, or?
Then you're making a typical calculation. You say order backlog at the end of June was EUR 220. Order intake-
Yeah
... plus, then revenues minus, and then you should reach the same level, more or less.
Yeah.
We did not make any corrections there. It could happen that, in the order intake, it is also contract manufacturing, which is a fast-turning business, maybe that partially coming from that area. But what we can do, Emil, we can do, check separately and send you the answer, after the call.
Yes. Yeah, that would be fine. Very good. Then on financing, on your financing leeway, what we discussed pretty much, I think, in the last conference call, I just want to confirm that you still have, I think you said EUR 20 to 25 million as bank financing options. Are they still in place?
Yes, they are still there. There were no cancellation or termination. Nothing expired, so they're still there.
Awesome. Then my last question on, just a reminder, actually, on, on lead time. So if you were getting orders, basically, let's say, end of this year, early next year, in the mobility and battery solution segment, when should they usually turn into revenues? Is that then a question of Q3, 2024, or is there any do you see a chance for having that earlier together with your partners?
As I mentioned, there's, like always, if the negotiation takes longer, unfortunately, the FAT and the delivery time don't accordingly be postponed. So we have a high pressure here, but good aspect is that also supply chain issues becoming less and less. And actually, for the big projects, we are actually shortly in expectation for the order intake. We expect a delivery in end of Q3, actually, for 2024. This is the actual planning, which is realistic, and as you know, we are doing POC, and meaning that delivery, then all the equipment is here. Just then the on-site installation and ramp up and commissioning is open. Main part of this project will be, or the bigger part of this project, will then be realized in 2024.
Coming to the other projects, it's roughly the same timeline we have here. After all the intake, between 10 and 12 months until the realization and delivery of the equipment, and then a short part or a short lower part of the revenues will then be in 2025.
Very lastly, could you remind us again, if you ship a gigawatt in line, what is the usual revenue you generate on a gigawatt?
Depending if you talk with building and everything, it's much higher number. If we are talking about fuel cell assembly, which where Manz actually is in and as an average, depending-
Yeah
... then on the technology, it's cylindrical or prismatic, but you can roughly calculate about EUR 25 to 40 million for a cell assembly line on a, on a high-end scale. That's, that's where we are actually, in, if it's fully equipped with the necessary process steps.
That has more than 1 gigawatt usually, I guess, right?
I didn't get it, sorry. Can you repeat?
That has usually more than 1 Gigawatt of production capacity for the client.
Depending, the production capacity is normally higher as the, let's say, capability and availability and the reduction, so that's the real output. The overall capacity is roughly 20 to 25, 25% higher.
Okay.
... All right, perfect. Thank you.
Okay, and hope you get really healthy back soon, and all the best for you.
That's very kind. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Pehl. Currently, I do not have any further questions. I give you a couple of seconds to think about. So, we have a question from Mr. Pop. Mr. Pop, you should now be able to unmute yourself and ask your question.
Can you hear me right now?
Yes. Yes.
Can you hear me right now?
Yes.
Okay. So, strange enough, today also, your investor, Daimler Truck, had its figures out, and, they also are complaining a little bit, that there is a long order backlog, so it doesn't seem to be only for you, only for the whole industry, even in the truck, area. My question is: How does Daimler Truck react on this, decrease on the share price of Manz? They invested in March, almost six months ago, at 35 EUR a share, and it could be a strategic, opportunity, to buy into Manz, right now, when the share price, almost lost 75% of what they, of what they invested.
Is there any idea of these key investors to use this opportunity right now to invest in case of a capital increase? Is there anything planned or anything in discussion?
As you know, even it would be the case, I even could not, not tell you. And, coming back to the question you had in the beginning, so, for sure, we have with our investors already some exchange in this direction, and as you have seen already, the entire industry is facing what I mentioned in the beginning. There are some reluctances, there are some challenges we have to handle, but I'm not afraid in the European and German industry, that we overcome this situation, and Daimler Truck is facing the same topics. There are some yeah problems in the market where we have to overcome.
If you check the share price of Daimler Truck, they also face the same topics, delivering quite good outcomes and EBIT and so on. But still, the market price of Daimler Truck is, as to their expectation, very low. The same we see on our end, but nevertheless, what we are focusing on is the development of the company and the markets where we are in, so the future, and there we both has, from my point of view, a very good opportunity in the future. We are in growing market. Transportation, logistics is interesting, and for months, very good, that also here, the discussion comes to an end about the electromobility in the truck area.
I don't know, you've seen that, Daimler Truck also announced now their first e-truck for serial technologies, and as you know, we have some orders from them. They are now investing into a joint venture in the U.S. We have discussions with them here for planning of a factory in the U.S., together with them and their partners. Very, very first beginning, so this is something for end of 2024, beginning 2025. And Daimler Truck is highly interested in Manz and its capabilities. Technologies help them a lot to drive their technologies in the battery industries, but also in the areas of module and pack assembly with our processes and machines we have delivered to them, and therefore, we see here also a good opportunity.
The discussion about share price is a side topic. It's not really our focus. We are discussing the actual topics, the projects we have on the table, and really how we can support and yeah help each other to overcome these challenges and hurdles we are actually facing. And this is a very fruitful and good cooperation we have here with them. But as mentioned, I cannot tell you what they think, yeah. They do their business, and we do our business.
That's good. Very interesting. Thank you. Very valuable.
You're welcome.
Okay, so any further questions from your side, then please use your Raise Hands feature. This seems to be not the case, so there are no further questions, and we will thus close this conference call now. Thanks a lot for joining us, for our financial figures call for the first 9 months of 2023 and have a nice day. Bye-bye.
Thank you. Bye-bye.
See you next time. Bye-bye.