Pre-Silent Call

Jul 5, 2021

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Otterkompo Q2 2021 Pre Silent Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speakers' presentation, there will be a question and Answer Session. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Linda Hakila. Please go ahead. Thank you, operator. Good afternoon, all, and welcome to follow Outokumpu's Q2 'twenty one Pre Silent Conference Call. My name is Linda Hekla, and I'm the Head of Investor Relations With me today, we have our CFO, Pia Aldonan Forsell. Today, We will first start with a short update from our CFO, and then we are happy to take your questions. But now, without any further comments, I will hand over to our CFO. Thank you, Linda, and good afternoon, Good morning, everybody. I hope you are keeping well in the middle of the summer here. And I think the weather It's been rather hot, at least here in Finland, and it seems so even globally. So certainly hope you are all keeping safe and well In these circumstances, but let's talk a little bit about markets and about the situation also So I mean, let me just get right on with it. So starting with the market situation, Obviously, we have seen a much stronger market environment order in Q1. And you recall that our guidance on volume, 1st for the Q2 was to say that we will be in a rather small bracket 0% to 5% higher on a global level For the stainless deliveries and here I would say we are safely within that bracket. It seems now here at The end of the quarter that we are probably quite middle of the range there. So I think there, please keep in mind that our The utilization was high already in Q1. So the volume that we have produced has really been operating on those Sort of high levels of capacity utilization, certainly also in the second quarter. Maybe a little bit of sort of description of the market Sentiment per se, I think we are still in an environment, if I first look at Europe, where we have we are experiencing long lead And what it means in practice is, we said 5 months last time, I think it's extending even up to month right now, so it means that we are very firmly booking into December or even beyond at this point in time. Obviously, then Something that is still worth noting as well is that we at this point and I think I have made data points, so that's the most recent I have, but Just looking at inventory through the chains and distributors in Europe, we are still clearly And I think that maybe something worth noting as well. I mean, we are of course, We have seen this rebound from the COVID, but still I think worth noting is that if we really look What's going on from an underlying demand perspective, we wouldn't sort of necessarily say that, hey, this is some sort New sort of high level, rather it's maybe a return to sort of a more normal level or even a return to a more sort of 2019 level. But obviously, we have had so empty supply chains and this sort of refilling of them is clearly still ongoing with still low inventory Maybe still just sort of from a mix perspective, I first want to confirm what we said earlier that While we have seen the rebound in the segments that are maybe kind of closer to end customer, you know we started to see the rebound first in Appliances in automotive, etcetera. And we have seen the rebound through all of the classical standard grades. We still talked last time At our info about the fact that for the more value adding rates, we are more sort of dependent on the investment cycle And we expected the rebound of those to occur a little bit later in this cycle. And I think that's exactly what we've been seeing In Q2 per se, I mean the mix still was, I would say, not back to pre COVID It was just slightly hovering there around similar low levels as in Q1, maybe just like Really small sort of incremental improvements. But in the order intake, we have seen more of the rebound also to the value So mind you, haven't seen sort of the scrubber business return yet, but a lot of the other sort of value added grades, certainly from an order intake And obviously, in Americas, we have the same sort of situation with a strong market, obviously, also Still low inventory level at distributors and clearly a very dynamic market environment right now with Near GDP growth and also a lot of stimulus, a lot of activity in the economy right now, so a good market environment And maybe still kind of as a final note on the market, I'll just also comment on ferrochrome. Ferrochrome, obviously, benchmark price for Q3 confirmed to be at Q2 level at the 156. We've also seen Here, a tight market situation and a part of this is, of course, even tragically, if I may use that word, if you look at some of the Sort of key producing countries in South Africa, there's visible in the figures that a third COVID wave is really shaking the country right now, But also from some other sort of ends of production, Inner Mongolia still suffering from significant electricity Squeezes, etcetera. So clearly, with good demand and a somewhat challenged Supply situation, the sort of rollover of the benchmark price was maybe sort of well Trade protection, I think you have all noted there The safeguards continuing for another 3 years basically with the sort of same scheme also with the 3% And I'm sure you also noted the anti dumping on Indonesia and India on cold rolled imports from those countries. So that was also confirmed during the quarter. For Indonesia, it means about 20% anti dumping tariffs. So I think those Sort of good conclusions. Obviously, what is still ongoing is the sunset review of the earlier Chinese antidumping tariffs. But so a lot of sort of confirmatory or sort of concluded actions there On the trade protection side. And finally, let me then move on to the cost side, where I think there's certainly a lot of interesting elements we could talk about. Maybe I'll start a bit with scrap. I mean, Maybe not to discuss cost per se, but specifically just the situation in the market, Given that we have a good stainless steel demand, obviously, that also translates into a lot of demand for scraps. We have seen there somewhat tightening situation, and I think we have I just want to reassure you that to the level Sort of optimal usage of scrap, I think we have been able to get access to the scrap that we have set out And from that perspective, situation has remained under control also in the Then sort of more generally on costs, obviously, from sort of a variable cost perspective, There's something certainly to be said also about variable cost efficiency and overall efficiency in a situation with high volumes, efficiencies So even with a little bit of inflationary pressure in the second quarter, I would say, particularly from a European perspective, I think we have managed really, really well on the cost side there. In the Americas, I think we have a little bit sort of tightening. The freight costs have increased a little bit. I think that's maybe worth noting, but freight costs And perilsicon costs, but the fact that I'm mentioning this does not mean that they are really significant. It's just to say that from an overall variable cost I think if we are discussing inflation, we should probably more be looking into the later part of the year and how inflation will be Playing out there, it's not really a Q2 topic per se. And on the fixed cost side, obviously, we had some more maintenance in the quarter. We talked about about CHF 10,000,000 extra For the quarter compared with Q1, and I think that's pretty much where we will land. Also, from sort of a wages I just want to say that we have definitely continued and already executed Quite a lot on the significant personnel reductions. However, please take into account that with an improved result and also With an improved situation when it comes to, for example, production volumes, production bonuses, etcetera, there will be somewhat more bonus In the 2nd quarter, obviously, an important private placement equity issuance and that EUR 210,000,000 was all used To pay down debt, so we've had an improvement also in our credit trading. And then from a seasonality perspective, 2 is typically, 1, still building working capital. And I think with good sales as well through the quarter and throughout the end of the quarter, I would expect There to be still from a sort of seasonality perspective building working capital in this quarter and then typically in Q3 and for sort of getting the cash back in. But I think with that said, my brief introduction And your first question comes from the line of Patrick Mann from Bank of America. Please ask your question. Hi, good afternoon. I just wanted to ask maybe around inventories and revaluations, how we should be thinking about that in Q2? Thanks. Yes. Good afternoon, Patrick, and really good question. Yes, especially as that was rather significant Positive in the Q1, it was on group level about €40,000,000 42,000,000 I recall, positive in the Q1. And I would say overall, it's still going to be a positive number, but not nearly as positive As it was in the Q1. So I mean, we have not sort of yet closed finally the books to really have the final number. But I think it's probably more in the magnitude of a sort of very low double digit figure as opposed to the sort of 42 that we saw in the Q1. Okay. Thanks very much. Thank you, Patrick. Your next question comes from the line of Tristan Gresser from Exane. Please Yes, hi. Can you please remind us what is your current status on carbon credit inventory? And Especially when do you expect to run out and buy actively on the market, assuming no change to the current policy, which is right now A 2.2 percent annual decline. Thank you. Yes. Thank you, Tristan. It's a good question, and I think there's still some Level of only sort of expectation and estimates here in what I will tell you. But I think we based on how we currently estimate both the Reduction in our emissions and then also the sort of future free ETSs that we would get. I think we will go past sort The middle of this decade before we are in a situation where we would need to buy. And if we can be more aggressive on sort of the CO2 reduction, obviously, the situation could still change. Obviously, the situation could still change. Then just from our policy perspective, Obviously, we would take into account sort of the whole period and would be able to buy if sort of the situation was right. So when you asked specifically that when would you start to buy, I think that would more be then sort of a tactical question of Thinking around this, but certainly, just from sort of when would we run out, we would at least go sort Definitely, maybe sort of even closer to the end of this decade. All right. Thank you. That's helpful. And if I just may follow-up, it seems that stainless will be excluded from the carbon border tax Carbon border adjustment mechanism according to a draft of the policy. What do you think of if this is the case, is it a net positive for 2 Point Poor's Ehlers sector or do you view this negative? Yes, yes. I think sort of from what I know about the carbon border adjustment mechanisms that are being planned for right now, They would not take into account all of the scopes, scope 1, scope 2 and scope And I think especially in an industry like ours, the scope 3 and sort of the full footprint really of also the raw material that we use It's really significant. So I would say any mechanism that would be really meaningful would need to include all of the scopes. So I think that's sort of I think that's something that we are really sort of considering And thinking about and I think our primary focus really remains on reducing our CO2 footprint really for all of the scope And that's also what our commitment now is for working with science based armaments initiative and partners. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Kepler Cheuvreux. Please ask your question. Yes. Hi, good afternoon. Couple of questions from my side. Maybe Just a brief follow-up on the Bordertex question. What is your view right now about the time frame until A definite solution on the way this will be designed can be expected. Is this just another year from now? What is your You on this. Oh, you are asking a really, really challenging question because I think we've seen just Look at some other fairly political processes such as, for example, the safeguards. Obviously, we know that the renewal happened 24th June when there was exactly 6 days to go until the end of the month. So I honestly, I feel that I probably don't have any sort of better sort of final information than what you would already have at this point. All right. Okay. I think you commented briefly on volume dynamics Q2 versus Q1. And when you look at your order intake now, where would you see a bit more dynamic? Is this more now bound to Europe Or to the U. S. At the moment? Actually, both are really in sort of a positive, I wanted to say mood, but the demand situation is good. I think in Americas, it's also seeing really sort of dynamically The whole GDP growth, the whole economy in a sort of very strong rebound, but we also see this rebound in our demand in Europe. And just comparing the lead Times, midterms in Europe today, 6 months and beyond, dynamic also when it comes to kind of Customer inquiries, I mean customers are certainly interested in discussing annual contracts already for 2022. And I think in some individual cases, We are already concluding on them. And I think then the same goes for U. S. As well. I mean, customers are really Eager to book volumes. We have at least 4 month lead times in the U. S, which is long for that market. And certainly also having a lot of customers interested to discuss 2022. So from that point of view, I think even though maybe the underlying dynamics is somewhat sort of from a GDP macro perspective, I think U. S. Is really strong. We also see strong demand in Europe. Okay. One question, I'm not sure how much you I was seeing some latest base price data for Europe pointing that The spark spot market could have reached a €1500 level. Would you say this is a bit Of a high number at that point in time or could you confirm it? Yes. Well, anecdotally and for Some individual case, you can of course, you can always see this kind of peak. But certainly, I mean, that is something very high, very unique. And more I would say that just sort of looking at development since let's just look a year back, I mean, in Q2 of last year, COVID And then we really started to see the pressure on prices and prices lowering from Q3, from Q4, etcetera. And we've certainly In already realized invoicing as well, sort of the rebound from those very low COVID levels and back to something kind of more normal. However, when we now just looking at orders already received, it is clear that we see further Price increase is in line with, for example, the RU data. And but that $1500,000,000 does seem to me as some sort of special case. So I think that would also historically be extremely high, of course. All right. Great. And then, Pierre, one last question is on your ferrochrome business, maybe to better understand that. Could you is it possible to give us kind of an average number what the ferrochrome needs Across your typical stainless portfolio? Yes, that's a good question. I guess sort of I haven't Can I answer it sort of indirectly to say that in a sort of normal year, We would use about 75% of the production that we do in ferrochrome internally, And then we would sell about a quarter externally? So that would sort of be on the balance of things. And obviously, we try as much as possible also for the fact, of course, that our ferrochrome is unique in being so CO2, Sort of it's only 42% of average global CO2 emissions in our ferrochrome. So obviously, we really want to use that and our mills Sort of geared towards using this internal ferrochrome. Okay. That's very helpful. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Krishnan Agarwal from Citigroup. Please ask your question. Hi, Fia. Thanks a lot for taking my question. You sound very optimistic on the volume side of Thanks. And then when you get to 6 months of fleet time to the Europe, can you talk about How much of these volumes are basically coming from the stronger market? Or is there any case of a market share gain for you guys in at least Europe? I think based on sort of the steps that we have so far, I think sort of the rebalancing that we Would like to see if kind of what's the balance between the imports and kind of The business of Autofumpo and peers. And I don't think if I still now I only have April data and usually the Q1 of the month, We still see this sort of higher sort of import levels and they tend to go down in kind of months 23. So if I just look at that data, I couldn't yet confirm that we have a higher market share, but that's not really maybe telling for the full quarter. So I think we worked really hard also on sort of finding those right spots for our business and through that obviously competing also to achieve a higher market share. But based on the data right now, I would say it more confirms that we have also seen a rebound in the Okay. Quite clear. And then in the context of 6 months of no lead Times in Europe, you would have clear visibility into the 3rd quarter volumes. And on the other hand, we have kind of Seasonality, kind of a volume going down. So how should we think about the 3rd quarter situation? Are we looking for flat volumes or some kind of increase this time around? Yes, yes. No, that's a really, really good question. And I'll need to come back to the sort of precise guidance when About Q2, and I'll explain from a market perspective, I think we have really good visibility until the end of the year. And then sort of the exact timing of some bigger maintenance that we typically do in Q3. So When you speak about seasonality, I mean, partially it's, of course, driven by the fact how our customers typically act. And then we have also very often chosen to do some of the bigger maintenance in that quarter. And we won't have any bid maintenance on the ferrochrome side. But on the stainless side, there's probably a couple of sort of bigger things we would need to do Also on the melt side, etcetera. So that's where I think that's why I wouldn't yet really say Can we stay flat on the volumes? Or typically, volumes would go down for Q3, and then we would see a little bit of a rebound in Q4. That would be the normal seasonal pattern. And now obviously, with a strong market, exactly how we will position that, I'll need to come back in the future release. Okay. Okay. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you. Your next comes from the line of Luke Nelson from JPMorgan. Please ask your question. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking our questions. Just Firstly, on ferrochrome. Can you give a sense of what the mix between spot and contract sales is quarter on quarter? I think at the Q1, you mentioned that the sensitivity would be below the sort of typical €10,000,000 per Yes. Maybe you can just give an indication of how that is tracking so far. Yes, yes. Luke, thanks very much. And actually a really good question. And I think sort of based on the data points that I have today and also I have sort of seen how my comment has been interpreted. I think there's been a lot of sort of sense and understanding into the fact We got a little bit of that sort of price improvement already through in Q1. And some of the things that I tried to look into Also, in a really good market situation, how have we been able to produce? Are we getting the volume out that the market is Asking for and you know then how much of those benefits can we get in and how can we kind of balance the contract part with any sort of additional And we've obviously tried to produce as much as we can, and I think we have been running fairly well as well through the quarter. But I think still overall, when you just look at the normal sensitivity and then look at the fact that we got in some of those price improvements already in Q1, I think it's very much in line with what I said about a month or 1.5 months ago. Okay. That's very clear. And then just following up from a comment you made before around Q3 and some maintenance in the melt shops. Sort of what's the quarter on quarter? What's the expectation of that in terms Absolute levels, but also maybe relative, I think, to this quarter, there's around $10,000,000 maintenance at a group level. Is that sort of similar level of maintenance in Yes. I think it could be similar, I think, Q2 or maybe just a little bit higher because of the duration of Some of the maintenance, we are not talking any sort of significant step up. But if it's similar, then I'm really happy. If it's a little bit higher, I think it's Still kind of within the boundaries for what we could expect. And I think the The real sort of sensitivity here will be around how to do the volumes and sort of how to place the volumes Q2, Q3 Sorry, Q3, Q4 in particular. And obviously, there's also we have Just looking at how much volume has usually dropped from Q2 to Q3, I mean, obviously, we are talking about tens of kilotons And that is based on the lower production volumes in the quarter. So unless we kind of reposition that to later in the year, then that would sort of be the normal pattern. So we still have to come back with this guidance then in our Q2 Okay. Sure. I suppose high level as well. I probably know your answer to this given comment On volumes, but given seasonal effects heading into the summer periods, But you do have higher base pricing coming through. Is it Still is it reasonable to expect that we can see further sort of significant EBITDA improvement given those moving parts As we head into Q3? Or is it still too early to make a judgment on that? Well, I think I can comment on some of the parts. But kind of on the overall EBITDA guidance, I think it's sort of a little bit too early to give it at this stage. But I think, I mean, exactly as you Sort of on the pricing side, you see that from the CRU stats, we can confirm that from orders that we have already received. It is To say that we are still on an improvement path, on an increasing path when it comes to prices. So if sort of during Q2, we saw more kind of a return Something more normal than certainly we will continue to see improvements after that. And those obviously are really important then for the contribution margin. And I think that's something definitely to keep in mind. On the other hand, volume is super significant for us, both sort of on the efficiency perspective and then obviously just from sort of plain absolute euros That we can earn on those. So it will be those will be 2 big drivers But that will need to be taken into account. And then I think a third one to I think worth mentioning because it's been so Significant this year is then also the impact of metal prices on raw materials and on hedging. And as I described before, I mean, this It was really supportive in Q1, and it's only going to be sort of a small number in Q2. And then let's see where will commodities As we grow and where will we see nickel price, etcetera. And that dynamic also needs to be taken into account. And there, I think, with the visibility that we will have Early August, we will then give our sort of best current view of that at that point in time. Okay. That's very clear. So one final Just in terms of headcount reductions that you touched on, can you just remind us what the So the cash out effect will be from the reduced headcount in Q3 And whether there's any additional provisioning or anything that should take into account? Yes. There is no additional Provisioning of any sort of significant amount because we did the sort of big provisions end of last year. Overall, The cash out this year for those provisions will be north of €50,000,000 €50,000,000 €50,000,000 €55,000,000 We have seen already more than 20 in the Q1. I cannot yet confirm the second I think it will still be there pretty significant as a lot of the cash out happens at the point when the person leaves. There are different ways of settling this in different countries. So that's why I would say there certainly can still be a tail in both Q3 and in Q4, but we do have a heavy burden on the cash out particularly early in the year. Very clear. Thanks a lot for your time. Thank you. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Harry Taitinen from Nordea. Please ask your question. Yes. Good afternoon, Bijan. Just a question on the, say, the typical relationship between the Transaction price and what happens to your average selling price. I mean, I know that it's also very high level thing. But I mean, in Q1, The relationship was that transaction prices were up by about 22%, and your average sales price in Europe was up by a bit less than 10%. And just sort of It's understandable that the volatility is lower, of course, for your realized prices. But I mean, in any ways, I mean, is it possible to Color on how should there be sort of difference in the dynamics in Q2? Because again, we have seen the transaction prices moving up above the same amount, I. E. A bit 20% sort of trying to gauge what the outcome might look like. Yes, yes, yes. No, I certainly And the question and I'm sort of thinking about a few ways of maybe kind of addressing So first of all, I think the dynamic that we already saw in Q1 is certainly There's a fair chance that it's valid also in Q2 for a few reasons. I mean, one of them obviously is that we have sort of a base In our orders that are the longer term contracts. And I don't think we have ever really said exactly how big a share it is, but it is still there. It's Sort of a platform that we stand on and it creates sort of a certain base dynamic into the way sort of how we And then you have to also keep in mind that there are annual contracts. Of course, there are also contracts, for example, 6 months, etcetera, There could be annual contracts even. So some of the pricing will then kind of stay there also as a stable base for the year. And That's one reason why you could see these deviations. And then obviously, another one, at least For me, worth mentioning is then simply signing as well, because you know that with really long lead times that we have right now, what we see right now in higher prices Order intake is obviously something that then typically we would now invoice in Q4. So it also means that we are kind of building up in our order stock these Kind of gradually increasing prices, but then in realized invoicing, for example, in the Q2, we probably still have a lot of goods that were Price in early in Q1, maybe kind of even late Q4. So I think that's why it creates this kind of, Should I call it the land maybe? But there's also never sort of a one to one relationship between the transaction price that you can see and our realized Yes. No, that is good. And just on the contract negotiations, I mean, can you remind typically When they start and when they are kind of fixed and is this year going to be different with everybody quite concerned about the availability For volumes. Yes, yes. I think the dynamic is somewhat different this year because I would say a very typical pattern is to go into those Really intense negotiations only really sort of towards the end of the year. I mean, they kind of start during the autumn and then get really sort of intense More towards the end of the year. But at this point in time, I think we had a number of customers who really sort of expressed their wish To discuss already 2022 and then even the sort of individual cases where we were already saying, okay, let's So I think the dynamic is different and I think it's some of the reasons at least include that the supply chains were So dried out with the COVID, the inventory levels were so low that this sort of surge, the sort of need for volume is now kind of through the chain there. And I think that creates a different dynamic this year. Okay. That's great. Maybe just one last question on behalf of my colleague in the credit side, if I may, that on the net Yes. The net debt to EBITDA target, I mean, you have basically comfortably reached the target already. And obviously, you communicated that the focus is still on the balance sheet sort of Strengthening, but is there going to be some sort of time or any indication like when you might be addressing that target or target level again? Or is it part of This kind of the strategy timetable that time comes later or how do you see that? Yes. Hari, I think it's a fair question. And I think, I guess, everyone The line can kind of safely assume that at least for everyone on the credit side, but I guess many others as well, this question has come up that will you update the targets Now we're sort of clearly having kind of safely landed in sort of safe territory on the below 3 on the leverage. And And I think that's why we choose in the Capital Markets Day to be so try to be very explicit to kind of continue to say we will continue to focus on the balance sheet. We really, Really want to reduce the net debt. Obviously now with sort of improved EBITDA figures also leverage gets As a measurement, then it sort of shifts very sort of rapidly, obviously, with changing EBITDA levels. And I just What I want to sort of clearly communicate is that from management perspective, really the priority to make sure that net debt will continue to be lower is there. And then when we can or if we will update that as sort of an official financial target, We will need to see we are obviously sort of somewhere in the middle of this sort of strategy phase now. We launched it in November, and we are kind of Through the improvements on EBITDA side, so we'll have to see. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Dan. Your next question comes from the line of Iolas Masvalles from Morgan Stanley. Please ask your question. Hello. Good afternoon and thanks for taking my questions. Just a couple left from my side. First one on the Americas. You've noted the midterm EBITDA potential for that division in the past for around 150 $200,000,000 over the medium term? Yes. That translates to about €200 per tonne or so of profitability. But you seem to be already at that sort of level at the Q1 results. Can you talk about the potential to stay To overshoot the target for the next several quarters if the current market conditions persist. And just a second question, We've seen higher electricity prices across Europe. Could you give us a bit of an update on how you're exposed to that? And what sort of incremental post headwind we should expect in Q2 and possibly in Q3 relative to Q1? Thank you. Indeed. Thank you very much. So on the Americas question, I do think it's sort of a it's a really good question under So let me phrase it this way. I think that what we want to ensure is that for the Americas business, have a sustainable sort of underlying business on this very healthy level of EBITDA and also EBITDA per ton, You mentioned, so I mean, obviously, with sustainable underlying, I also mean that I wouldn't count in, for You know, hedging impacts or metal inventory valuation impacts, etcetera. So I would really be watching That sort of underlying EBITDA development. And I think we are still working on many of those Important topics there. Obviously, with higher volumes, that's an important factor. Have sort of the right we need to have the right volumes there. We need to have the right mix. We also need to still work ensuring our yield, Cost based raw material, what we call slab cost optimization, having all of these in really super shape. So I think your question Is there sort of is this cyclical? Is there a point in the cycle where such a midterm target could even may be overachieved. I think we'll have to probably look at Q2 figures and look at how much result do we have there Excluding hedging and the sort of raw material impacts, I think that's going to be one important sort of key factor to look at. And certainly, I think that we have a good business in the Americas and it's now starting to show Some of the strength. So I do believe we are on a good track there. Then to your second question on the higher electricity prices, Yes, indeed. I mean, we do have exposure to electricity prices. It is very rare that we would buy sort of pure spot. We have a certain that we call hedging strategy, but it's obviously sort of contractual arrangements and there Other mechanisms to make sure that we are kind of on a solid base. Nevertheless, I would say that obviously with the sort of trend in electricity prices We have seen now it will gradually start to impact us and we do have 10% of our cost base almost in this sort of electricity energy buckets. So we are not immune to it, but I would say that we certainly don't get this sort of direct big here either. So it's more of a gradual thing. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks. Thank you. There seems to be no further questions at this time. Please continue. Thank you, operator, and thanks everybody for really, really good questions. I think it gave an opportunity to sort of further talk Some of the details and particularly also around pricing that I think are important dynamics to watch as we speak. So as said, we will come back with more volume guidance also on Q3 than in our Q2 release Obviously with a lot of other important information. So then talk to you soon again. And with that Linda, I would hand Back to you. Thank you, Pia. First of all, thank you all for listening our pre silent conference call today. Before we close the call, I would like to remind you that we will start our silent period tomorrow on July 6, and we'll continue it until our January June Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you all for participating. You may Now disconnect.