Q4 24/25

Apr 29, 2025

Summary

FY25 advances grew 19% as secured assets rose 40%, offsetting MFI contraction and stress. FY26 guidance targets 20% AUM growth and 30% PAT growth, with lower credit costs and improving margins expected.

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Jana Small Finance Bank Limited Q4 FY 2025 earnings conference call hosted by Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Sanjana Fozdar from Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am. Thank you, Rupaja. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Q4 FY 2025 and FY 2025 earnings conference call of Jana Small Finance Bank. We at Nuvama Wealth like to extend our sincere thanks to the management team of Jana Small Finance Bank for providing us the opportunity to host this call today. Joining us on the call are Mr. Ajay Kanwal, Managing Director and CEO, along with our esteemed members of the senior management team. Without further delay, I would now like to hand over the proceedings to the management. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Thank you so much, team, and good evening to everybody. Let me start off by a very important milestone for the bank, which is that with our audited results now in the public domain, Jana Bank meets the universal bank norms set out by the Reserve Bank, which is meeting gross NPA and net NPA below 3% and 1% threshold for two consecutive years. With that, we would like to file in our application for the universal bank within the next 30 days. Secondly, it's been a very tough year, but I must say a very rewarding year. It has been one of those years where we had obviously stress in microfinance, and when the year began last year, we had 40% microfinance business. But as we finish the year, our MFI book is down to 30%, and yet we have grown a solid 19% growth in assets. Fundamentally, our strategy of developing multiple lines of business has come through, that even if MFI does not grow, which in our case hasn't grown, in fact, it's negative growth of 11%, our overall asset book has grown 19%. The growth of secured assets in our business is 40%. That's the first most important piece in terms of performance. I would now start referring to some of the slides, because I think it's easier to then relate to numbers. So I'll be on slide 3, which talks of PAT. Here is a very interesting simple headline, that we have delivered INR 501 crore of PAT after doing accelerated provision of INR 305 crore. The INR 305 crore obviously is to make sure that net NPA remains below one, and the INR 305 crore obviously has come from increased MFI stress leading to obviously more slippages and then our need to provision. Now, if you back out both deferred tax asset year-on-year difference and the accelerated provision, our adjusted PAT should have been INR 779 crore. By saying this, I am just trying to give you the ability of the franchise to deliver good PAT, and we will talk about that in more detail as we go through. I just want to tell you that delivering this PAT in a tough year, in our minds, has been one of our strongest performances till date. I would now move on to the next slide, which talks of the asset, and I did give you a glimpse of that a bit earlier. Yes, while MFI was stressed and we did spend a lot of time focusing on collections, getting things right, we were never doubtful in our minds that our future was always secured in nature. We used that time to increase our secured throughput. You can see that the advances growth is 19%. Of course, banking industry is 11%, but our secured is 40 solid percent. This is not the first year. You will see later in the slide that the growth between the year 2022 to 2025, the CAGR has been 40% unsecured. It is just that even though the base keeps growing, we still continue to deliver 40%. The unsecured degrowth has been 11%. The only silver lining here is in Quarter 4, unsecured has eked out a small gain of 0.2%. Fair to say our unsecured growth rate will remain stable or slightly positive as we go into this year. The big challenge around the book not growing is behind us. I must also add that the MFI book, 28% is now under the guarantee program. As you all know that this guarantee program takes in new disbursements, so we will complete the balance 70 odd percent through this year. So by September, we will be mostly 90% odd under the guarantee program, and you will see later details between what goes under CGMFU and what goes under CGTMSE. We are doing a mix of both. I must also tell you that now the way we operate is we kind of start investing in products so that it is good for our customers. They are getting multi-products from us. But at some points, we think the products by themselves have become profitable and they matured into a good business. I am so glad to tell you that, and you will see the numbers later. Gold and two-wheelers have become that business. Business will be investing for some time, but now you can see their growth rates, you have seen their size. We do think that in our minds, they are no more the babies. They have become good, strong teenagers, and they will run very fast. Having reached those two with gold and two-wheelers, we have now started focusing to put our measured investment money into used car growth and Supply Chain Finance, so that a year or two years from now, I will be in front of all of you by saying that our used car business and Supply Chain Finance businesses have become reasonably strong, healthy growth businesses. So overall, I will share with you number by number of the secured asset growth, but we are very proud of the advances of 19% that we made in spite of our unsecured growth of -11%. I draw attention to slide number 5 on deposits. 29% has been the deposit growth this year against the industry growth of 11%. Our deposits now stand at INR 29,120 crore, and you will see our CD ratio is now down to 93.3%. If you add in the refinance, it is only 82.9%. We are very liquid. As you know, we had strongest LCR. It continues to remain the strongest. Like I had told all our investors and analysts that we will keep bringing down the LCR as liquidity improves. Our LCR has dropped from last year, 391% to 253%, and we will continue dropping it further. CASA, it grew at 18%, but I would like you to see a page or two later where our 18% growth includes the price of dropping CASA by 9 basis points. Because as we all know, many folks can grow CASA, but there is a cost to it. I think very few people can grow CASA with improving the price on it, and that you will see the actual physical numbers as we go along. We have also added Andhra Pradesh as our 25th state, and we are very delighted that we are able to now do business in that state because we do feel there is going to very good and strong economic development in Andhra Pradesh. Now, before I move on, asset at 19%, secured assets 40, unsecured minus 11, CASA at 18, deposits at 29%, CD ratio at 93.3%. There is nothing here which tells me that we should not be feeling very bullish and very strong about what is going to come in the following year. The one question we should be very clear about, what to expect on any more credit costs. I would like to then quickly and importantly go to this credit cost page. If you see the regulatory provision, it is down from last year. The incremental accident provision is INR 305 crore versus INR 73 crore last year. Yes, INR 305 crore will stand us in very good stead this year. A lot of it will become recoveries. Having said that, our net credit cost, if you really back out accident provision, is about INR 325 crore, which we think is a very healthy number. Having said that, the reality is, yes, we would like to keep ourselves very alert and very focused. If you see the additions of gross NPA in the next table, you have seen a slight addition from Karnataka in the quarter four. Our Karnataka book is only INR 560 crore, which exists on the bank's books. I want to bring back to a very important point, which you have always spoken of in the past that Jana has always taken a position where it does not want to have any concentration of any asset in a particular geography. Karnataka happens to be the head office of our bank. Karnataka should have been a large book, but by design, we have not kept a large book. To anticipate the next questions in how big is your MFI book in Tamil Nadu? It is INR 1,000 crore. It is not a significant number. It is not something that can shake our numbers too much. Not that we expect anything to go wrong in Tamil Nadu, but we are just being more careful. Really, I want to come back to GNP saying, yes, the peak is behind us. We will remain very watchful. I think the real celebration to our mind will begin from maybe Q2 going into Q3. We continue working hard. Our PCRs are strong. We have accelerated our provision to INR 305 crore, and we are in very good credit shape, as I would put it, because when the book has dropped of MFI from INR 10,000 to now INR 8,900 odd crore, it has taken most of the poison away. That goes for credit cost, very clearly worse behind. Things are improving. Karnataka, small problem. We don't have a big book already baked into our Q4 numbers and we move into this financial year with lot of strength on the way we manage our collections, our credit, and of course, with a large amount of provision available with us. I want to talk about two things which are very dear to us. We always were proud of our cost income, which last year we finished at 57.4%. I've mentioned to all of us that our bias was to take 57% down in the three-year period to a 54% number. We unfortunately, this year have gone the wrong way. We have become 61.3%. The single biggest reason is drop in revenue from unsecured. That has really caused the income to compress from an unsecured perspective, and we really can't address costs so quickly in the short term. Let me assure you, we'll come back to the first digit being five this financial year, because we know that cost is a certainty, and managing cost remains most crucial to us, largely led by digital and productivity. I mentioned CASA earlier. I think CASA has grown, but not by increasing money, and you can see our CASA cost is down to 4.36% while we have grown to INR 5,235 crore, which is a healthy growth rate of 18% in CASA. I thought before I go into more deeper numbers, I will give out the highlights and probably answer some of the important questions and give you the messages from the bank side. I would like to move on to slide number 8. Here is an important one. Our capital adequacy has moved up to 20.7%. It was 20.3% last year, and we have not raised capital. It only tells you that we don't need to raise any more capital. The reason that capital has improved from 20.3% to 20.7%, and as you all know, it's largely Tier 1, we have hardly any Tier 2 capital, is for three reasons. First, profit of INR 501 PAT. Second, 28% has gone to CGDM with CGMFU. Third, we have INR 1,000 crore, roughly about, more than book. All these three things will be real this year also. What you should expect is our capital adequacy to further strengthen without raising a single rupee of either Tier 1 or Tier 2 as we get into this year, and we continue to drive numbers. Again, if you see the highlights of this year. Give me a second. Okay. I'm sorry. Other highlights on this page that I could have picked up was gross NPA at 2.5%, which has improved from and I'm still on page 8, folks. Sorry for the small digression. It's improved to 2.5% from a 2.7%. Everything else, which you look at the return ratios or you look at the ROEs, they have improved in Q4. On a full year basis, which is on slide number 9, I think this is a very important slide for us because it pretty much puts in the INR 30,000 crore of asset and liabilities. This becomes a significant number from our perspective, and we are very proud of the 70% secured advances. I will move on to slide number 11, and I really want you all to spend time on slide number 11. I really wish I can show you a similar slide every year, but let me take some time in being a little bit less modest by reading some of the advances growth, which I have highlighted in pink. Affordable Housing Loans this year has grown by 37.8%. Our micro LAP has grown 21.6%. Our MSME Loans have grown by 29.1%. Our NBFC, which has been one of our best books, has grown by 50% through Q4. We have slowed down because every other business really grew very hard in Q4. Two-wheeler, 105%. Gold Loan are 237.6%. Kindly ignore the GNPA of 2.7% on Gold Loan because that is technical in nature. Loans against FD, it really is not something that we think will grow further, but as you know, it is very low profitability-oriented. Overall growth in secured assets, 40%. Where we sit, we would like to continue the same growth rate, and there is no reason why we should not continue the same growth rate of secured asset growth. On unsecured, too much negativity on MFI, I do not think is warranted. We know the businesses has its challenges. One has to grow the business in a more measured way. Here, I must say that for us growing the unsecured book by 0.2% in Q4, I see it as a positive. Because the way the unsecured business works is if my collectors are unsure of collections, they will not give the next loan. It does not matter how much hard we try to push. Ultimately, the ground team, which is a few thousand people, they should feel confident that things are back on track. So when I see a growth rate on my books in unsecured advances, I see a confident frontline who is very comfortable in saying that, "Listen, we have been through the worst. I think we can collect." I do not have to tell you that we are far more conservative than any MFIN guardrail. For no other reason than we do feel that every player has a different approach. Unless we are not clear of how the industry emerges, we would like to remain very conservative. I would give you the conservatism number. If any of my existing customers have more than INR 50,000 with any other institution, I will not give him a next loan. We are so hard-nosed. We are not moving at INR 2 lakh being the outer limit. We are operating at INR 50,000 as our limit, that I will not give the next loan if he has got more than INR 50,000 exposure. Here is the very important piece where secured is strong, healthy, and will continue to show very good growth. I do not have to read the GNPA numbers for you. You folks must have already glanced it. They are very healthy and gives show a lot of promise. I want to move on to slide number 13. This is where I said 28% guarantee program, 0.2% is the growth in the fourth quarter and very positive. Our BC book is down to 5%, but I must tell you that we see a lot of progress made by the BCs. All the BCs, the three of them that had challenge in the book, they are standing strong, they are standing steadfast, they are fighting back, they are collecting. I somehow have a very strong feeling the BC book will show good profitability this year. Next, I would like to move to page number 15. This is our favorite page because these are the bankers. We are an anchor bank. We do not like product selling. We would like to give multiple product to customers. So bring on board your bank is very crucial to us. For the first time, we are showing you last year versus this year. If you go to any of our past slides, it is when we began Home 360 versus now. I think we have moved on from that phase because I think all of you folks who have been following Jana would know that rather now we start tracking ourselves year on year, and here is the best part. This is where customers are showing strong buy-in to the whole idea of having a one single bank which meets all their needs. Our average relationship has moved in single year from 3.6 to 3.8. I have given a small line below, which is if you assume property and life insurance, it actually becomes 6.1%. But we take these two out because they are nearly required for every single housing or micro LAP loan, so we do not add them. There are some very beautiful spots, and I must point out that we are delighted with our Gold Loan penetration at 2.2%, which has moved up from 1.6. So imagine, first, housing loan micro LAP customers are growing. In that growth business, which is roughly about 30-odd percent growth, you are also seeing a growth in penetration. So it is like a double growth because your penetration improve in an enlarged growing base from 1.6 to 2.2. Our business loan grows to 18.5. Two-wheeler is honestly work to do. The best part is CASA balance is now at INR 28,000 from INR 18,000. Again, what is our competitive moat? What is our differentiation? How do we become the anchor bank for rising India? This is the page to read. Where will future operating leverage come from? This is the page to read. Where will we get better credit quality because customers have multiple bank arrangement with us? This is the page to read. This is one of the most important pages in our investment deck because this is fundamentally how the bank is being built. I want to move to page 16 now, and that is where you will be very happy to see CD ratio at 93.3% and 82.9% including refinance, a very strong growth. Yes, we did have a growth in our cost of deposit, but I must tell you that from a 7.7% to an 8%. Here we are sitting here in April and we have already had one cut in the deposit rates. We have had one cut in our savings rate. I do feel that our LCR is still strong. We have room to cut that. I would argue that you should expect it back to a lower number during this year. We continue being very focused and very diversified geographically in deposits also. Nothing changes there. All in all, there is a lot of work for us to do to improve CASA. But this year's CASA of 18% growth, while we have reduced the cost of CASA, is showing that the new segment offers we did last year, whether it is Exclusive, it is Premier, it is Legend, are all showing immense traction. We are very happy as we go into this year. And now we have got a few more stronger offerings, which we can see has got strong customer reception to grow this year. I will move to slide which is digital. In digital page, if you see every number, I struggle how to put up a number as a headline because if you are doing 98% account opening with digital, then there is 9,900 cannot be so important, right? One thing I must tell you that we are fully focused on digital. I would like to share with you progress of our AI projects, which I will do in the next quarter. All I can tell you is that three very specific projects related to productivity, customer service, and being co-pilot to our front end, we have already started work on. I am not building any of that into my next year numbers, but all I can tell you is when I do talk of digital next year, I would be or rather this financial year, I would certainly be talking a bit about our solid progress on AI. I would then like all of you to move to page number 22 with me. This is our PCR page. First important point, out of our net NPL of INR 250 crore, the biggest chunk of net NPL left is secured with LTV of 43.3%. Good news is we are in a very strong position when it comes to credit cost going into next year. And our PCR including tech write-off, and this is tech write-off in the same year. It is not cumulative tech write-off. That stands at 80%. And as you can see on the right-hand side, it has never been a big book, but our restructured book has always been low and restructured book unsecured is down to INR 3 crore, which is negligible. All the secured ones have property backing, so nothing here which should bother any of us. I will then move to page number 23, which talks of numbers. And again, very important is to notice quarter four. 105 PAT has become 120. Operating margin up from 279 to 293. So quarter four is a positive direction and that should give us, and certainly you, a sense of direction the bank will take. I will then move on to the balance sheet slide, which is slide number 24. Important is our liquidity as of March 31 has been the highest in the past. It is at INR 2,816 crore. And importantly, our refinance, which we availed this year, has increased our tenure of refinance to 5.6 years. Roughly about 4.7 years last year. So very important to understand why do we take refinance, because this is long tenure borrowing. These are essentially for NABARD, NHB and SIDBI, and we are thankful to all the refinance institutions for really giving us this long-term money. I want to put 5.6 years because it gives you a true sense of what is it doing to our ALM. It is really helping us tremendously, and I mentioned in the past, cost is not the challenge. We remain liquid. We are very well covered on credit. We have a strong secured asset growth. In a tough year, we have grown 29% on deposits. I would like to finish with slide number 25, which is guidance for this year, where we would continue to grow AUM by 20%, deposits certainly in the 20%, PAT at 30%, ROA between the 1.6% to 2% and ROE between 15% to 18%. I am very conscious that you will have more questions than I would have answered. I will stop here and I will now open the house for questions, which me and my team here will take. Thank you. Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Manish Oswal from Nirmal Bang Securities. Please go ahead. Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity and quite a resilient performance given the industry challenges scenario. My first question on our performance on the net interest margin side during the year. We all know there is asset quality pressure, highest so there will be some interest diversion. Another factor which playing out is the increasing cost of funds, because deposit cost is also increased during the period. Now going into the FY 2026, when both the factors turning positive from a macro standpoint, how do you see our margin performance? Plus, we will see some growth in our unsecured book, which also help us to improve our margin. Where do you see our margins to do compared to FY 2025? Manish, first, thank you so much. Yes, you are 100% correct. I must tell you this. When we had modeled our 3-year program, like what will we look 3 years from now when we become 80% secured, our NIM when we had turned 80% secured should have been 7.7. We are finishing around 7.6. We are really off our own projections of NIM because we should have been 7.7 when we were 80% secured as per us. Let me give you a few things, and you have mentioned a few of them already, which is interest and suspense is the issue. Unsecured is not actually, it is de-growth and that impact is quite heavy as you know. Yes, both of them should be positive, which is less gross NPA, net NPA, unsecured will grow. That is certainly another positive. The third piece, but I think the most important piece I must tell you, I did a calculation and a study of what is my NIMS for my secured products March 2024 to March 2025, in spite of cost of fund increase. The good news is my NIMS of secured are identical between March 2024 and March 2025 in spite of cost of deposit going up. My confidence on saying yes, NIMS will get better this year, is not only got interest in suspense, growth in unsecured, drop in cost of deposit, but my biggest strength today is my secured business is 70% of my book and that is holding very well. Yes, Manish, you should expect NIMS to improve as we go into this financial year, and I mentioned all the right reasons for that. Yes. Second question from your remarks. You said that currently the 28% book is under guarantee program and by September, 90% of our MFI book will be under guarantee program. Let us see one scenario, hypothetical scenario, when this kind of credit event happens, where we make the lot of saving in terms of credit cost from a PNL standpoint in that 90% scenario. Can you explain that thing for us? Yeah. I will give you the CGTMSE example because that is an easier example to share. Let us say there is an event tomorrow and there is a 10% gross NPA need. The cost to the bank, and Abhilash help me, if there is a 10% gross NPA or provisioning need, our impact to the bank will be what? 2.7%. 2.7%. That includes a 1% cost on top. On top of it. 3.7% will be so on a 10% gross NPA. Under CGMFU, my impact should be 3.7%. Manish, what I have really tried to do, and rightly so, not just me, I am sure other players are also going this way, taking away the event risk over here. I can handle a small drought. I can handle a small unemployment issue or a particular state has some other disturbance. What I cannot handle is a large-scale disturbance. I do not want when I am turned 70% secured, the 30% will disturb the bank, right? That is the only problem that I do not want to be sitting in future with. Our bias is please provision for the cost. When I said I will grow PAT by 30%, Manish, the cost of guaranteeing the balance 60-odd, or 70-odd%, I have already included in my numbers. The good thing is once I do it this year, then every other year after that on a year-on-year will not be impacted. My 30% growth in PAT already assumes that the INR 50-odd crore I would need to do my provisioning, to do my guarantee program, it is already baked in my numbers. Lastly, sir, you talk about your cost-to-income ratio because this year we have a lower income and that's why the cost-to-income ratio increased against our guidance of 54%. You said we will have a first digit will be 5 in cost-to-income ratio. Going into slightly deeper perspective, if I see the 20% growth of a balance sheet, where you see our expenses grow to track down the balance sheet growth lower than that, how one should think of it given the mix of the business? First, I'll tell you a very basic approach here. See, one is, I have the same number of people in unsecured when I was doing INR 10,000 crore as I'm doing today. I'm at INR 9,000 crore with the same number of people when I had INR 10,000 crore. I can see that my unsecured doesn't need more headcount. Between you and me, it's very simple here. The biggest cost growth really is headcount. What we have done this year is really invested in growth of our secured business because we have two choices when things go wrong. Which is like we all get scared and we start hoping for things to solve themselves and we start then growing. Or we say, "Listen, this is our chance." God is telling us that, "Listen, you need to take the pivot to secured even faster, even harder." I'll give you one number. When we began March 2024, the number of people who were in business, that is in sales, in Affordable Housing Loans and micro LAP was 1,800 people. Right. I'm finishing March 2025 with 3,300 people in Affordable Housing Loans micro LAP. I think I've already made the investment. It is already baked into my numbers. You should see a strong growth already. First, you will not see as much cost growth this year as you saw last year. That is the first point I am making. By giving you the two big headcount guzzlers of our bank, which are both microfinance as well as housing, I'm explaining why cost will not go up. The other answer you already know, which is revenue will go up as we do more unsecured and as the balance sheet grows. The third piece I mentioned was digitalization and some of the AI project kicking in. But I'm not building for that. That will only be something on top of it. Yes, we will have a five digit in front of our cost income as we finish this year. What will it be exactly? Sorry. Sure, sir. Thank you for answering all my questions, and we expect predictable earnings to sustain in the coming quarters and years. All the very best for your FY 2026 guidance. Thank you, Manish. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chintan Shah from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, and sir congratulations on a good quarter. Firstly on the Gold Loan. If I see on the Gold Loan GNPA percentage, it has inched up from 1.1% in the previous quarter to 2.7% currently. Could you just help with the reason why is it so? Also the coverage ratio also been maintained around 60% there. Are the LTVs really high or is it something tactical? Yeah. Firstly on that. I would put it as you will not see it at this number when we meet next quarter. I think we could have done a slightly better job. I think in the overall way things are, we kind of at a particular geography, we kind of didn't pay a bit of attention, which is why it's slightly gone up. There is no issue around do we have our average LTV is about 60-odd percent. There is not a rupee loss in gold. It's very technical in nature. It's just something that we could have probably done better handling is how I would put it. We'll fix it before we meet you next quarter. Good thing about gold is we are very comfortable with the growth. We will continue growing very strongly, and you will see that when the next quarter results, quarter result two months away, we already finished the first month, right. We are very comfortable with our gold. 2.7 is a very technical issue. It's got nothing to do with fraud or gold valuation, anything like that. It's just the way one of our geographies had managed the interest collection, so that is a fixable issue. Already most of it is fixed. Nothing to worry about. Sure. Sir, on the RBI gold loan circular, is there any impact to us due to the circular? I think the impact is very positive because it says that all regulated entities, which includes NBFCs and banks, should have 75% loan-to-value, including the interest. As you know, that was the difference between banks and NBFCs, where NBFCs were able to do 75% without the interest. I think there is a level playing field. I think there is clear guidance on what should happen during renewals, what should happen during top-ups. That ambiguity has gone away from everybody's mind. I think they have been very clear. I do think that from our perspective, the Gold Loan gives us what I would think is commonality and one platform for all the players, which is great. It is a level playing field. There was some discussion in the system that could you do it this way or that way? I think it has been very clear right now. It is very helpful to us. We are very enthused with this. I must tell you that as we speak, wherever we had part-time valuers, we are turning into full-time valuers. We are thinking of getting a few machines on carat meter so that we can expand that business. I said gold has given us confidence. You have seen our stupendous growth last year, and you should see an equally strong one, if not a stronger one this year. It will be a core business to us, and it is important to our customers. Yeah, that is helpful. Sir, on secondly now, on the growth. I think for the next quarter, we are guiding for a similar growth on the loan as well as the deposit front, given that the CD ratio is now well under control. That should also be aiding margin, right? Is that a fair assessment? Yes. Chintan, first, I must tell you, see, CD ratio never held us back. For us, managing CD ratio including refinance has always been our basic going-in position. The reason we have made sure that we did this deposit growth is to take away any of the questions that people may have. It is a bit of a cost to us. As you can see, we are now INR 2,800 crores as surplus cash. Liquidity, yeah. We typically had 1,500, right? It's a bit of cash. I think we have taken away that question mark. People usually, "Can you grow a deposit base? The market is so tough. What will happen," et cetera. I think that question is now no more a question is what I would assume, and that should give us. I mean, we already had that comfort, but I'm now transmitting the comfort to all my current or future investors. Yes, so here is the good part. My secured is growing very strong. It will grow very strong. The margins are very stable. Very important, a secured business is not a product business. It's a multi-product business. I must tell you, in my Gold Loan growth, my branch banking, which are doing liabilities, has a very important role to play. My two-wheeler salespeople are also selling Gold Loans. Listen, it is very important because this is the culture of the organization. You're building an organization where every single banker is conscious that his role is to give as many needs as possible of a customer met to our bank. I'm giving those examples because to us, that is the most important thing. We will certainly do a strong asset growth, be rest assured. Margins will improve. You just mentioned to Manish Oswal earlier the reasons. There's nothing else that I can add further. Sure. Sir, just a follow-up on this. You tell, so what would be a product per customer right now, and how was it like one year or two year back? Chintan, if you look at this slide number. This is basically that 16 number slide. This is our housing and micro LAP book. I just want to step back and tell everyone what is our original view. Our original view is the base product of our bank will be housing. It is micro LAP, it is affordable housing, MSME LAP. We want house to be the base. We think home, whether it is where you stay or where you work, it is a linchpin of a consumer. Wherever he has his home loan, where his home relationship is, LAP is, that will be the primary bank to a customer. That hasn't changed. We have done some work internally where we feel as you go out into the future, between 50%-60% of the bank's book will be property-backed. Property is the most resilient asset through any cycle. Now obviously, when you do property, you can do prime mortgages, which doesn't give you enough ROE for us, or you can do affordable housing, which is hard work. It does give you higher GNPA, but it's obviously a high ROE business, which is where we are. As you can see, very importantly, customers don't like to go to multiple institutions. I take a gold loan from X, I take a two-wheeler from Y, I keep my bank account as Z, a personal loan from A. It doesn't work. It's just too complicated for a customer from a KYC angle, multiple repayments. It's a hazard, right? You can see from page number 16 that it works very well with customers. Customers like it. It is of course the most commonsense thing to say, but the issue has always been execution. Two banks execute on a customer vision. It's a tough one because all banks have silos, right? Affordable housing team is different from the gold team. But will the gold team sell affordable housing and affordable housing sell gold? That's cultural and the way you build incentives, the way you train, the way you make people think about the organization, the way your processes are, the way your systems are organized. For us, the good news is we have that working for us, and we just want to accelerate that further. At some point, I will try and give other products cross-holding also, so that you can see how the bank is really building itself into a customer strategy. Sure. Sir, if I just may squeeze in one last question. On the accelerated provisions, now we have INR 305 crore. Are there any further plans of making further accelerated provisions in FY 2026, and how do you plan to utilize this? Or what could trigger the utilization of these provisions? Yeah. Actually, this is a bit of a very simple one, which is these are again specific accounts. If the account needs further provisioning, we will use this 305. If the account do not need any provisioning, this will not be used. If the account improve, which is they repairs back or they become out of NPA, then we will release the provision. That is the three ways it can be used. Our bias is to continue. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead, Chintan. Those accounts are currently standard on the. No, they are all NPA accounts. The accelerated provision is only on NPA accounts. Only on NPA. The INR 305 crore is stacked against NPA accounts. It will deplete my provisioning into the future. These are provisions more than what is the regulatory requirement. That is why it is known as accelerated, right? Thank you so much. Maybe I should have mentioned it. I took it for granted. Yes. Which is why if you see the page, which is page 1 itself, it talks about regulatory provision, what is required as per the norms, and this is accelerated provision on specific NPA accounts. When those accounts mature, when they are resolved, and they become standard, I release the provision. If they do not get resolved, they will need more provisioning. I already have accelerated provision, I will not provision further. The borderline, Chintan, most important to us is that we will need to maintain a net NPA below one, gross NPA below three as we continue through the universal bank application journey. Yes, I will tell you that we will have some accelerated provision this year also. But again, a lot depends. Why was acceleration 300 and not 200? Because of MFI stress. If there is no stress, acceleration would have been lower. I expect it to be much lower this year, but it will not be zero because we would like to keep net NPA below one and gross NPA below three. Sure. This is quite helpful. Thank you for the opportunity and all the best. Thank you, Chintan. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nidhesh Jain from Investec. Please go ahead. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, a couple of data-driven questions. Can you break the slippage number in secured and unsecured? I want to see how the secured asset quality is playing out. Similarly, if you can share the write-off number for Q4 as well as for FY 2025, and again, break it down in between secured and unsecured. Okay, that's an easy one. Sorry. What I mean is the CFO is again pulling it out. Do you have a follow-up question while he pulls it out? No, no. That's it. This is better. Okay. Why don't we take next question while he pulls out the data? Sure. Thank you. No, thanks, Nidhesh. Shall we move to the next question? Yes. Please move to the next. I will just come back. Sure. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shailesh Kanani from Centrum Broking. Good evening, everyone. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, can you give the break-up of this regulatory provision of INR 448 in terms of MFI and secured books? INR 448. Let me bring it up. Just one second. Nisha is working on this. Let me bring it up. Hello? Yeah, sorry. Yeah. All the Excel spreadsheets are working on the sides because we have to check product by product. We do not have secured unsecured as a break. If you could give the MFI, like individual or group loan, et cetera, they have the number, just adding it up. One more second. Okay, sure. No worry. Out of the INR 448, roughly about INR 280 is for unsecured, and the balance is for secured. INR 280 is for the 30% of the book and the balance- Okay is for secured. 70% is- MFI. Minus about 260. Yeah, 280 is MFI. Right. For secured. That answers that. I still open- Yeah hear the question to Investec on flow rate. Just for understanding purposes, that seems to be an excellent performance considering the last year what across players the industry has seen in terms of credit cost. My thought process or I want to understand from you is that, in my understanding and my calculation, CGMFU cross cycle normally the cost somewhere falls in the range of 2.7%-3% odd. As per this number, we are around 2.8% in terms of credit cost. In worst of the cycles, if we are having a credit cost which is less than 3%, which is a phenomenal job, why should we be spending on CGMFU cover? Because generally the cycle pays out, say, once in 3 years. Can you explain me this? Sure. Here is my thought here. First, I want to talk a bit about the book. We had a BC book where we had FLDG from the BC. Roughly about INR 120 crore of provisioning came from the BC, which is why it did not migrate cost. That's one. While the BC book GNPA is high, those books still bring. We've always mentioned this through the year. I think our BC strategy is around preparing also for a year where it becomes a bit rough for us. BC has been a positive in terms of credit cost, which may not be true for every player. Second, nearly about 55%-60% of our book is actually individual loans. A larger portion of that is actually urban in nature. This time, as you know, it is more a group loan problem, it is more rural in nature. The second reason why we should be differential in terms of performance from the rest. The third piece, I'll just give you the single number. If you take a CAGR of unsecured growth for Jana Bank from 2018 to 2025, which is only 7 years, it'll be the 1.5% number, plus or minus a bit. We have never grown aggressively. The only problem in unsecured is when you grow aggressively, you do things which are not normal growth cycle growths. Three reasons why our unsecured should have always been better than any regular competitor. We have been saying this for some time, but that's a different matter. Now, why would I do CGMFU, CGMC? I can't predict every down cycle here. I don't want to be sitting here with you tomorrow, and there is something more severe happens, and I feel that I tried to save some money here. Remember, this money on a year on year, only this year will be an impact. From next year, it'll be a year on year basis impact here. We have seen that MFI continues, whether it's demonetisation followed by COVID distress. There is some small possibility that we have seen a Karnataka small decline. Maybe it could have been worse. I just feel that it's probably good for the bank. Then maybe I give a bit of ROE, bit of ROA, but we get that event risk out of our minds here. I certainly don't see us exiting the MFI business. It has a lot of value. But I don't see ourselves taking that chance that something unmanageable happens, and then we are all wondering why did we save the 1% here. I know it's 1% per year, but I do think it is worth that we actually just solve it here. And I don't know if this is the worst stress year. Maybe next year will be even worse. I don't know. I don't want to be in a position where I don't know. Does that help? Okay. Just a follow-up on a similar line. We have seen a very good jump in non-interest income, other income, right? On a QoQ basis as well. Anything to call out there? Any margin off? And also, are we charging our customers for the CGMF for what we are buying, what we are doing for their loans? No. We have not changed the customer IRRs at all. We have kept the IRRs the same. Because frankly, a guarantee or non-guarantee, we wouldn't like our customers to kind of use that and say, "Okay, anyway, you've got a guarantee I won't pay." So we've kept that very much within ourselves. So that's one. So there is no charge for CGMF for the customer, right? Yeah. Customer IRR is standard. Okay. Sorry. Do you want to finish that question? I need anything else because I want to go back to the last question also. No, please continue. Okay. The flow rate for Q4, that was the question earlier, was unsecured 309 and the jump previous quarter was Q3 was 277. That basically came from Karnataka. That was unsecured gross flow. Gross flow. It is not net in terms of actual rupees value for Q3. Sorry to interrupt. You- Can I request Mr. Shailesh Kanani to please mute your line because we cannot hear. There is a lot of disturbance in the background, sir. Sure, I will do that. Thank you. I just repeat the question that Rajesh had earlier. Rajesh, the unsecured flow rate was gross flow, not net. It is INR 309 crore, up from INR 277 crore in Q3. That was primarily to do with the Karnataka thing. On secured, it remained very flat between Q3 and Q4 at around INR 150 crore. Ritesh, does that answer your question? I think he is not online. It is still Shailesh here from my side. Sir, just to continue on my non-interest income part, can you share any one-offs over there in the non-interest income? PSL. We are in PSL income. Other income he is asking. Tell us. Yeah. The PSL income of almost INR 18 crores for the quarter. Compared to the quarter. INR 6 crore. Net is INR 6 crore, but in other income is reflecting directly from the financials. There we have booked INR 18 crore and we also booked a cost of INR 13 crore under the OpEx. That is why the OpEx is also slightly elevated and other income is also elevated. Net, we have gained around INR 5 crore between expense and income. That is the only one-off. INR 18 crore has come added to the other income line, and we have lost INR 13 crore on the OpEx line. That is both PSLC transactions. Got it, sir. Sir, just last, entirely different question. Can you give a breakup of CASA and TASC numbers? That would be all from my side, sir. Okay. CASA is declared there as 5,000 something. The rest is CASA. Thanks a lot, sir, and best of luck. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Soumil Shah from Paras Investments. Please go ahead. Am I audible? Yes, Paras. Sorry. Paras. Yeah. Was it Shailesh? Yeah. I'm Soumil. Yeah. Soumil. Soumil. Soumil. Sorry, Soumil. I am sorry. I pronounced your name wrong. Go ahead. FY 2025, if you remove accelerated provisions, then our PAT is about INR 780 crore. If we were to calculate 20% growth for FY 2026, plus some reversals which we may have from these accelerated provisions. Can we assume we can cross four-figure mark in terms of PAT for FY 2026? Second, not all accelerated will be unused. Accelerated provision is for NPA customers, right? Right. Some NPA customers will become going to full provision. Not all of INR 305 crore will not be required in this year. That is one. Number two, we will do some accelerated provision this year also. But yes, Okay I would argue and think about maybe if all things go well, the following year we can talk of somewhere around that number. Okay. We also have a DTA benefit, correct? Because see, I will give you a simple back of the envelope here. If we had unsecured growth of INR 1,000 crore this year, so INR 9,000 crore becomes INR 10,000 crore, which was our March 2024 number. So March 2024 was INR 10,000 crore unsecured, becomes INR 9,000 crore this year, rough and ready. Next year goes back to INR 10,000 crore, which is FY 2026. That will add straight to the bottom line minimum INR 100 crore here. And of course, less provisioning, some recovery from the past. It all look nice, and we know that. Now the question is, we do not want to grow so fast here. We want to make sure that the environment is cleaner. We want to grow, like I said, very conservatively on unsecured till we know that everything looks sorted. Today, unsecured MFI does not look as totally sorted. It is still a mixed bag. It is mixed by geography. It has got some trouble in a particular state unexpectedly. I would have loved to reach the four-figure mark, and I must tell you that has been not just mine, but our entire management team's dream, that we should get there as fast as we can. But I don't want to chance it yet. Yes, I would give myself one more year for that. Okay. What are we guiding for FY 2026 in terms of PAT? What I have put in the guidance note, which is 30% approximately, and we'll probably get more firmer on that guidance as the year progresses. Okay. It's still conservatively different. I'm saying that's still conservatively different. You are a 70% secured bank, my friend. Mm-hmm. Okay. And sir, any credit cost guidance for FY 2026? Certainly lower than this year. How much lower? Give us a quarter to go by. Like I said, let some of the unknowns, at least how much does Karnataka finally fall through? Does Tamil Nadu become a small issue? I do not know all these things. Just give me a bit of time. But all I can tell you, it will be obviously the elephant is out of the room. The big provision has been done. Last year is over. It will get better than this year. More firmer numbers we will give when we probably meet you after first quarter. Okay. And sir, my final question. On the deferred tax asset, what is the amount left with us for FY 2025? See, the way you think about it is like this. First, you have enough DTA left. Right now, the DTA between last year and this year is 155 plus this year was how much? So totally INR 185 now. INR 185. INR 150. See, the final year of DTA is 2027, FY 2027. Correct. That year, right now DTA is INR 177. Let's say DTA becomes INR 200 by FY 2026. At 25%, that means I should minimum make a PAT of or rather PBT of INR 800 in the year FY 2027. That's how you should think about DTA. DTA has probably another, if you ask me, between 20 to another 40 crores addition at best, depending on how this year pans out. We will continue on taxable FY 2027. We are short of where we had promised PAT this year. We were hoping to get a PAT of between INR 650 to INR 700 last financial year, which we haven't done. We have got INR 501. You can expect probably about 50, 60 crores of DTA to be lost based on last year's performance. Basically, FY 2025 end, how much we are left with? Around INR 650 crores? Yeah, 500 out, 550. Yeah. We are left with 550. Okay. Okay, that is it from my side. Thank you and all the best. Thank you so much. The next question is from the line of Neha Karnani from CapGrow Capital. Please go ahead. Hello. Yes. Good evening. Congratulations on good set of numbers. A couple of questions from my end. In the adjusted ROA of 2.31%, just wanted to have an idea, like how much ROA is generated purely through BC book? Question one. Question two is, have we done any kind of asset sale to ARCs this year? The first one is, see, ROA on a BC book on a year basis would be tough because a bad year means ROA is negative. On a good year, the ROA will be very positive. We have looked at through the cycle performance of a BC or an MFI book combined, ROA comes around 2%. I am talking of fully loaded through the cycle credit first, which you normally assume between 4%-6%. That is the way why we do BC and why we do MFI, because, this year cannot be a great number for any ROA for any MFI book or for a BC book. But if you go the previous year, it is like a brilliant number. So we kind of average it out. Yes, we have done ARC sale this year, both on secured and unsecured. Unsecured mainly. Mainly unsecured. They do not know the Just a follow-up question. As you know, the provisioning for an unsecured book with ARC or within the bank has to be identical. Understood. What I am trying to say is there is no difference of provisioning for the bank, whether the asset sits in ARC or whether the asset sits in the bank. It is an identical provisioning methodology. Understood. Sir, just one follow-up question here. Has this sales ARC sales gone up in FY 2025 compared to FY 2024? What would be the bank's practice in future years regarding this? We think ARC is a good tool for the bank. It gives time for collections. It obviously brings in some cases, some expertise from the ARC companies. We certainly would like to play a judicious mix. It is also a cost. Which is why I said all depends on three things, which is what is the flow rates into gross NPA, net NPAs? That is the first determinant. Based on the flow size, we decide whether we would like to continue with our provisioning and hold it with us, or we would like to get some time to solve it and hold it with the ARC. What we are very mindful of is provisioning is identical between the bank and the ARC. For our ARC is also in some cases to get any expertise from them. Certainly the secured side, they do have a lot of help that they can provide and a lot of experience that they bring in. Those are the parameters. Yes, ARC is a good thing to do. It is certainly a tool available for banks to manage their NPAs better, and something we would certainly keep as a tool in our handbag as we go into next year. Whether we do it or not do it all depends on how the NPA flows through. Got it. Sir, just last question. Any difference in asset quality yields, any difference in provisioning when ARC sales is done? I wanted to ask here Not at all. what is the practice of banks to sell what quality of assets to ARCs and keep it in its own books? First, it is a regulation. There cannot be any difference. You only decide what takes longer to resolve and where you need expertise, and that is the ones that you choose. You decide the quantum based on what you think you want to continue on your books as provisioning or what you take on the ARC book because, as you sell to an ARC, your gross NPA comes down. It really helps you figure out on a gross NPA, you want to reduce gross NPA by taking technical provisions, you want to reduce gross NPA using an ARC, and that depends on the flow of the year. Again, first you have to be very clear, it is an RBI regulation. You cannot have a differential structure between ARC, non-ARC in terms of provisioning. It is identical asset. You provision an ARC book as it is on your books. That is an ARC customer. Got it. Thank you. No problem. The next question is from the line of Sagar Shah from Spark PWM. Please go ahead. Good evening, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I had around three questions, actually. My first question was, on the liability side, our retail deposits as compared to our overall deposits is decreasing almost quarter-on-quarter. It stands at almost 58% as of now. Can you highlight that? Do we have some strategy on board to at least increase the retail penetration in our liability portfolio? With any guidance on even branch addition. That is my first question, sir. I will let Srini, who is our head of branch banking, runs the liability business, answer that. Hi. First of all, on the branch addition, it is there in the investor deck. We continue to add branches every quarter. The branch addition will continue in the next financial year as well. On your question on drop in retail deposits and what is our strategy to continue to build that. Clearly, the product process and people strategy that Ajay talked about will continue to be our mainstay to bring in retail deposits. Ajay talked about three, four products which we recently come up with Yes which are doing well. We will continue to build our scale on the retail side with the help of those products. And we think that going forward, this should continue to improve in the quarters ahead. Just to supplement what Srini said. See, first, let us look at the three numbers. CASA growth rate 18%, while the CASA cost has gone down. Retail deposit growth rate 19%, and then bulk growing around 48%. Really, retail deposit is growing, but obviously the bulk is growing faster than retail. And as you can see very well that our ability to do TASC accounts, our ability to work with various government accounts, our ability to work with various FIGs, that is a very strong propensity we have developed. And in spite of having a good growth in bulk, we probably have the best LCR in the industry. There is a Mm-hmm. Yeah. good virtue we have, which we don't want to give up. But yes, should retail grow harder than bulk? Ideally, yes. And maybe this is the year we would say that because liquidity has become much better. Our segments which we launched last year are showing good results. CASA is showing it, retail is showing it. But because we did get a good opportunity on bulk growth, it does look like the retail number has gone down, but retail by itself has grown 19%. Yeah. Okay. So at least in FY 2026, can we see that number inching up to 60%-65%, sir? Absolutely. That will be our serious and sincere attempt because we also would like to see that higher for no other reason. So if you look at the slide, and this slide, I'll give you a slide number. We have opened roughly about 52 branches last year. Let me get the number right. I don't want to say the wrong number. Slide number 18. Yes, slide number 18, if you go to. 52 branches last year. 20 out of the 52 have come in Q4. We are expanding branch networks. I also mentioned we opened the first branch in Andhra, which is in Guntur. If you see the same page 18, we have this Legend, NRI, Exclusive, Premier programs all launched last year. Yes, you have every reason to expect and ask us for more retail deposits. Given our liquidity position now, our need to grow bulk is very diminished. You would see naturally our retail and CASA combined grow into the 60s this year. Absolutely fair to ask. That would also basically at least lower your cost of funds, sir, if I am not wrong. Right? Yeah. Cost of fund, I think anyway should come down honestly, because even bulk will become cheaper this year. Expecting everything to be cheaper this year is fair to expect also. Okay, fine, sir. My second question was regarding to the asset quality. Asset quality, you already highlight in the last quarter that we have seen the worst and in this quarter again, we saw some sort of higher slippages, especially from the unsecured book. Now you guided earlier on the call that FY 2026 seems to be at least positive for unsecured space. Looking at your BC book and Agri book, the asset quality has deteriorated even further, actually. The GNPA has touched almost 12.7% for BC book and 7.5% for Agri. Still the net NPA is far above 2% for both of these. Going ahead, first of all, what is the picture for FY 2026 on both these cases? And secondly, have we actually seen the worst because you have guided even for further accelerated provisioning on the unsecured fronts. Can you give color on these two segments, sir? Yeah, sure. First is, you are reading page 13. Am I correct? Yeah, that is correct. In that page next to the GNPA is quarter-on-quarter growth, year-on-year growth. And you will see that both the BC book is in a decline and Agri book is in the decline. A lot of the gross NPA percentages you are referring to is because denominator is also going down. Is that fair? Yes. I don't see the denominator going down in any significant way this year. So you will get that denominator positivity. As you can expect in any book, whether it is a BC book or an Agri book, there are customers who are over-leveraged, there are customers who have used the opportunity not to pay. They kind of flow through and become part of your NPA. So the most aggressive, most leveraged, most naughty customers are already in NPA. So the lump left behind is not much. Unfortunately, what happens in Agri book is if you look at the Karnataka problem of the first quarter, it largely is in the rural area there. It is not in the urban areas. So while we didn't anticipate a Karnataka blip, it did happen in the first quarter. If there is no Tamil Nadu blip, then we will be in a good position. It is exactly for this reason we do two things. One is we try to grow slowly. We want to take away event risk through guarantee programs. Am I nervous growing Agri? No. I'm not sitting here saying, "Listen, it makes me nervous, so I won't grow microfinance." I'm telling you that, yes, within our criteria, we will grow microfinance. Will it grow at 10%? Unlikely. But certainly in the 3%-5% range, we see it growing because we are very conservative. So again, if there is nothing which surprises us, you will obviously see a peaking out. The peaking out got slightly muddled with Karnataka, but nothing serious. We should then see again a gradual decline. But you and I should know that I don't think the MFI is sorted out as yet. It is still something to be on high alert for, and that is what we will be. I'm not guiding you to- Okay get worried on credit score. I am telling you if you read this page where we are very transparent about our challenges, whether it is BC book or Agri book, and we do that from a transparency angle, because those are challenges we have, and we want investors to know that. Will I grow my BC book this year? Yes. I did mention earlier in the call that BC may be the positive surprise nobody is expecting, but it may end up being that. That is how we think about it right now. This is in spite of seeing a 12.7% GNPA in front of me, because that is a denominator problem. Okay. You highlighted, I missed out. Karnataka book is mostly in rural areas than urban areas, you said. The impact of Karnataka challenge is mostly in the rural area. I have a book which is urban and rural divided, but my impact which has seen the slippage is in the rural areas. Okay. My last question, sir, is on LCR. LCR, you have done a fine job on that. Our LCR stands very comfortable at around 253%. Going ahead, do you want to at least guide on FY 2026 basis that will our LCR further come down? Because the cash that is lying on the balance sheet is huge. The cash is especially lying with the RBI. It is far higher. The growth is almost 3x, actually. Do you want to guide something in FY 2026 that our LCR will even go below 200%? That will automatically benefit our NIMs, actually. Right. You are 100% correct. I did say earlier that as a liquidity. What does LCR do? It tells you stable money. In a tight environment of liquidity last year, we wanted to have a lot of stable money. When you have bulk deposit, even more importantly, a bulk which is stable, which is what we achieved. Now the market is, clearly the liquidity has become much better. For us to ease out a bit on LCR is very normal. You should expect LCR to get lower. I must also tell you we will model the upcoming LCR regulation, which goes live on April 26th into our thinking and our work before we decide to bring it down. Yes, I will confirm two things. One, LCR will come down. It will still remain very healthy after taking account the April 26th number. Or other guidelines which are coming into effect from April 26th. Okay. Fine, sir. Thank you for answering my questions, and all the best. You are welcome, dear. Thank you. The next question is from Sarvesh Gupta from Maximal Capital. Please go ahead. Good evening, sir, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. Most of the questions have been answered. Just one clarification. On the microfinance book of 9,000 odd crores, our gross NPA is INR 350 crores and the net NPA is around INR 70, 80 odd crores. This is after the additional provisions of INR 305 crores that you have taken this year. Is that correct, sir? That's right. That's from slide number 13. Yes. Are you reading slide 13? Yeah. That's the number. Yes. Okay. What is the SMA book, sir, before the loss NPA, which is still there? That is- About 400 odd crores. Yeah. About approx 400 odd crores. What kind of provisions are we carrying against that? Again, SMA, we are not carrying any provisions. You mean SMA 0, 1, 2? Yes, for microfinance. The entire provision is carried against NPA book only. There is no provision in SMA book. Okay. That's all from my side then. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Thank you so much. First, thanks Nuvama and all of you for patiently listening and being on this call. I just want to close the call by saying, only in tough years do you get to see quality make a difference. And I thought us turning secured all this while, what does it mean in a real sense is visible to us so obviously, and I am sure to you all also. I think second is the way the team handled the crisis, and I think it comes from handling two past crisis, which is both demonetisation and COVID. I think the response has been very mature. And I must tell you that we feel very comfortable sitting here as we go into this financial year of exactly what to do. I am also, in a way, really hoping and looking forward to the universal bank application, because to us, that will be a game changer. Our whole liability propensity and cost will change significantly, and so also our ability to do some of the products which you think will have better customer attraction once we turn universal. And finally, I do think that us building an anchor bank for rising India is a competitive moat and differentiator. And I am sure that will keep us in good stead. With that, thank you so much. Good night, and hope to see you again next quarter. Thank you. Bye-bye. Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your line.