Welcome to the Hemnet Q3 2022 report. Today, I'm pleased to present the CEO, Cecilia Beck-Friis, and the CFO, Jens Melin. For the first part of this call, all participants will be in listen-only mode, and afterwards, there will be a question and answer session. Speakers, please begin.
Good morning, and welcome to the presentation of Hemnet Group's results for the third quarter of 2022. My name is Cecilia Beck-Friis, and I am joined today by our Interim CFO, Jens Melin, and IR Manager, Nick Lundvall, who will assist me in presenting an operational and financial update of the quarter. As usual, we will finish with a Q&A. Let's start with the highlights on page 4. This is another strong quarter for Hemnet with 22% growth in net sales and an adjusted EBITDA margin of 53.8%, all while returning over 300 million SEK year to date to our shareholders through dividends and buybacks. We continue to see strong demand for our value-added services and are pleased that customers are seeing the benefits of opting into our larger packages Plus and Premium.
In fact, over 40% of ARPA growth in Q3 was driven by growth in value-added services. Revenue from business partners and other customers grew 9% excluding items affecting comparability and increasing growth from the previous quarter as we see agents increasing their investments into Hemnet. Net sales from real estate agents alone grew 19% in the quarter. Overall, a great financial outcome for Hemnet in Q3. I, of course, also want to address the housing market. The current climate is defined by an increased degree of uncertainty, both for transactions and sale price. However, we have some limited impact from this in our business and financial results for Q3. There were 52,000 listings on Hemnet during Q3, which is in line with the high numbers that we saw last year.
The total number of listings on Hemnet therefore remains high as we continue to see a buyer's market, with lower property selling prices and longer sale cycles. I want to remind you that we are paid on each published listing and not each completed listing, and we are therefore well-positioned for a market even where buyers and sellers are finding it harder to come to an agreement. Here is a new statistic that I want to share with you as well. In a comparison to the second-largest property portal in Sweden, we saw that a listing on Hemnet averaged 19 times more visits. This market leadership means that we offer the best conditions and products to help our sellers increase their chances of selling a home and agents finding their next seller.
Despite the uncertainty that currently exists in the market, I remain confident of the strength of Hemnet's platform as the number one choice for home buyers, sellers, and real estate agents. We will continue to innovate and invest in increased revenue per listing and to improve our offering to our customer. Turning now to page 6 for a business and market update. From a listings perspective, this was another good quarter for Hemnet. Q3 listings are slightly above the high levels of last year, as you can see on the left. On the right, you will note that the growth has returned to a more normal pace than in the two previous quarters that were both in excess of the average annual growth of 2% that we see in the longer term.
Zooming out and now turning to page seven to speak about the property market at a glance. Despite the solid performance in new listings, I think it is fair to say that Q3 was an unusual quarter on the property market, with higher uncertainty and discrepancy between buyer and seller expectations. This is not the first time in recent history that we see a pattern like this. We have previously seen a similar market each time there was a mandatory amortization amendment in 2016 and 2018, and also during the onset of the pandemic in 2020. In a market like the one we are in, it can have its benefits and challenges to a property portal.
On one hand, it is of course slower and more unpredictable, but on the other hand, this market might also drive more Swedes to review their living situation, which could have a positive impact on listing volumes. I've said this before, but I think it is worth repeating. We operate in an exceptionally stable property market. The housing market does indeed fluctuate by quarter, but in the longer term, we see a 2% growth, with the largest observed drop in listings at 5% during the year when Swedes were forced to amortize their mortgages for the first time. Turning now to page eight to talk about house prices and price expectations. Despite healthier listing volumes, we can see that it is taking longer to sell an apartment and that the bidding premium over asking price is at zero.
We are also seeing low price expectations when looking ahead. What is interesting is that we continue seeing an uplift in asking price, which grew 6.2% year-on-year. This is an evidence on what we told you during Q2, that sellers will mitigate some of the expected price decrease in sale price by raising the asking price. We are now in a market where acceptance price is again used, and it is exceptionally difficult to sell off market. Ultimately, the price premium has decreased more than what the asking price has increased, so the final price is lower, but the portion on which we base the price of our products has increased. Now turning to page 9 to give an update on how we are holding up to the key challenges of the current property market. Firstly, about the potential decline in transaction volumes.
Transaction volumes are indeed down 11% compared with 2021. Worth noting is that 2021 was an exceptionally hot year in the property market, and the transactions are actually in line with 2020, which was a more normal year in that regard. However, we are paid on listings, not transactions, and listings are up 2% year to date and hold firm in Q3. Also worth remembering is that transactions and listings are not perfectly correlated. Secondly, on how buyer's market affects us. It is becoming more difficult for sellers and buyers to meet at an accepted price, which has resulted in a somewhat slower property market. I remind you that the Swedish property market is still among the most efficient in the world when it comes to time and cost to sell a house.
Q3 asking price was in fact up 6%, while the sale premium is now zero. This suggests that the sellers are making some compromises on price to secure a transaction. Hemnet is in a great position to help sellers find the largest number of potential buyers for their property. In fact, I mentioned earlier that we provide 19 times more views per property than the second-largest platform in Sweden, meaning that sellers wanting to maximize their price are in the right place when listing on Hemnet. Thirdly, on how a decrease in the property price may impact our revenue potential. What we have seen is that this market is driving sellers to invest more in value-added services, and through a combination of conversion and pricing, ARPL is up 29%. Finally, on higher interest rates. This have a minuscule impact on Hemnet due to our low leverage.
Overall, I would say I feel good about how we are holding up in this market. Moving now to page 10 and ARPL, which was up almost 29% in Q3. This is driven by a strong demand for our value-added services, Hemnet Plus and Hemnet Premium. We have seen a slight impact on conversion growth due to new listing distribution, with proportionally fewer new listings in the major cities, but we have the tools and headroom to continue working with increasing ARPL in line with our strategy. We are currently working with a purchasing flow, specifically how we can better communicate the benefit of each package to sellers. We're also reviewing more flexible ways to pay for a listing. Turning now to page 11 to give you some product updates.
During Q3, we will always be impacted by the fact that two months are summer months, and therefore new product output tends to be lower than in other quarters. This quarter is not an exception, and the team has worked on developing and improving our existing product portfolio to a greater extent than rolling out new products. One product that I am happy to announce is the new My Home feature in our apps, where the majority of our traffic comes from. The new My Home view gives users a more personalized Hemnet experience and deepens our relationship with the users.
Through this new product, users get the customized home screen valuation estimates that is now rolled out nationwide, sales time expectations, and a new feed for relevant properties, all in line with our consumer strategy to increase customer engagement throughout the entire property life cycle rather than just the buying and selling portion of the journey. Now on to page 12, where we talk about business partners. We continue tailoring our business-to-business offering with products that leverage our unique market position. From agents, we continue seeing strong demand for Hemnet products. Jens will give more color on that later. Here, we are working with increasing awareness and traffic to the products that connect sellers and brokers. We're also preparing for the launch of Mäklartipset in Q4, which is a value-added service for agents.
Property developers are seeing a challenging market, as well as can be seen in their investments in our platform. Nonetheless, we have added new renewal listing product to all product units to allow developers more chances to sell their inventory. We are also working on a facelift for our product pages, as well as a review of the business model for this product to make it more in line with the value that developers are receiving. Let's now turn to page 13 and talk about our investments in talent. I have previously flagged that recruitment remains a challenge post the pandemic. Here we have a net addition of three employees quarter-on-quarter and continue to supplement this with consultants.
This investment is predominantly within product development and a mix of developers and manager roles to allow our organization to scale. Where we are unable to fill such roles with FTEs, we will turn to consultants as an interim solution. On the topic of chairman and CFO recruitment, these are both ongoing, and we have filled both positions with strong interim solutions while we look for the right candidates to fill the roles in the longer term. Finally from me, turning to page 14 and a brief update on our brand campaign. The campaign was launched in Q3 in our internal channels, as well as TV4, the main linear TV channel in Sweden. The campaign is the first of its kind for Hemnet for many, many years. This is more than an advertising campaign.
It is a brand campaign that defines how we want the market and our users to perceive Hemnet, and will be the basis for our future communications. We intend to invest in marketing in an efficient way to remind users that Hemnet is the number one destination for buyers and sellers of housing in Sweden. I encourage you all to take a look at the video for which there is a link at the bottom of this page. With that, I turn to Jens to give a financial update. Jens.
Thank you, Cecilia. Let's turn to page 16 and the financial highlights for Q3. This is yet another strong quarter for Hemnet, where we see significant growth in both net sales and EBITDA. Starting off on the left-hand side, we have our net sales increasing 22%, continuing our strong growth during the year. Our adjusted EBITDA came in at SEK 128.5 million, up 26% from last year. It could be worth noting that we don't have any adjustments to EBITDA for 2022, and in the historic periods, the vast majority of adjustments are IPO-related costs. The adjusted EBITDA margin came in at 53.8%, up 1.6 percentage points from last year. It can be noted that margin levels in the second and third quarters have historically been our strongest as market activity is high.
Moving then to the right-hand side, we saw ARPL increasing 29%. Cecilia talked about the drivers for this earlier on page 10, which were a combination of product updates, conversion to our value-added services, and price adjustments across all seller products. As expected, we continue to see a high cash conversion, which was 104% in the quarter. This was more or less the same result as in previous quarters this year, and follows that we have a favorable working capital dynamic as we grow our seller revenues. Leverage came in at 0.4x rolling 12 months adjusted EBITDA, which is a slight increase in leverage compared to Q2. This since we have continued to return capital to shareholders via our share buyback program, and I will come back to that topic in a few slides.
Now turning to page 17 to look at net sales by customer category. Revenue from property sellers continues to be the main growth driver and is up 29% in the quarter. This mainly due to increased ARPL, which also grew 29%. It is also encouraging that we continue to see the positive development for our business customer groups with a combined growth of 6% in the quarter. Adjusting for SEK 2 million of items affecting comparability last year, the underlying growth is actually 9%. In this group, we continue to have a strong demand from real estate agents, where we had a 19% growth in the quarter. We have seen strong sales to agents previously in the year, and this trend continued also in Q3, where we have had a high demand for both our value-adding broker products and traditional display.
Moving to the last two categories, to developers and advertisers, the slight declines are mainly due to slightly lower display revenue. However, looking at display revenue across the business customer groups, the combined revenue shows an increase of 7% compared to last year. We have had a couple of quarters with tougher comps for traffic due to the inflated numbers during COVID. Traffic levels have stabilized somewhat during the year, but for Q3, it is still a significant drop compared to last year's numbers. Despite this, we are generating a higher display revenue, which is a strength for our business. In summary, I would say that our business customer portfolio is working well, delivering growth even with tougher comps on traffic. Let's move to our adjusted EBITDA bridge on page 18. We are a growing company with an operating leverage in our business model.
This leads us to moving from SEK 102.3 million in 2021 to SEK 128.5 million in 2022. We have covered the drivers for the SEK 44.8 million growth in revenue, so let's instead look at the cost side. The compensation to real estate agents continues to grow at a similar pace to our seller revenue, up 28% from last year. As a proportion of seller revenue, this meant that the compensation was just below 29% for the quarter. Other external expenses, excluding compensation to agents, is up SEK 8.9 million. This mainly as we have taken in consultants to temporarily fill some roles while we are doing permanent recruitments. Personnel costs have increased by SEK 0.5 million, as we have increased the organization since Q3 last year, but not to the extent that we would have liked.
This follows the challenges we have seen with recruitment. Also, in Q3 last year, we had a one-time effect of SEK 4.3 million, so excluding this, personnel costs are up SEK 4.8 million. Turning now to page 19 and our cash and leverage position. We talked about our cash generative business model and that the cash conversion was 104% in the quarter. One factor contributing to this is that when we grow our seller revenue, we tend to see a positive development for working capital. This as we have to wait until after each quarter end to sum up and pay out the compensation to real estate agents while seller revenue is of course paid continuously. Our strong cash conversion has led to a decreasing leverage position over time.
For Q3, we instead see a slight increase in leverage, which is in line with what we have communicated in previous calls. Namely, that our dividend and buyback program should stabilize leverage over time. Our net debt was SEK 175 million, and our cash and cash equivalents amounted to SEK 124 million at the end of Q3. Moving to page 20 and a few additional words on the buyback program. As previously communicated, we are targeting total share buybacks of SEK 450 million up until the next AGM. By Monday this week, we had total SEK 261 million in buybacks during the year, so adding another SEK 23 million since the end of the quarter. This leaves us with a bit less than SEK 200 million left to buy. Our goal is to keep a steady pace up until the next AGM.
This is subject of course to any variations in trading volumes as we have structured the program to meet the safe harbor regulations. During the quarter, our buybacks have been slightly ahead of plan for a steady pace during the year. This is due to the trading by our third-party service provider, as the buybacks are made at an arm's length basis and not an active decision by Hemnet. With this, we are following our dividend policy to distribute excess cash back to shareholders. Before handing back to Cecilia to wrap things up, this final slide in the section is our financial targets on page 21. Our growth rate measured as an LTM value is now at 25%. Our profitability came in above our target range of 45%-50% for the second consecutive quarter, leading to a 51% LTM adjusted EBITDA margin.
Leverage was 0.4 times, as previously mentioned, and as we have said before, the management team is really looking to meet or exceed the set targets. Also, as an additional comment on the targets, we want to refer back to what our chair of the board said during the AGM this year, which was that the board will be reviewing the financial targets ahead of the next AGM. That concludes my section here today. Over to you, Cecilia.
Thank you, Jens. This was yet another quarter where we demonstrated our exceptional business, and the result is growth in excess of our financial targets for both net sales and profitability. This despite the more challenging property market with longer sales times, lower sales price, but with a high inflow of new listings. All a testament to the scalable and stable business model that Hemnet enjoys. I am happy to see the continued demand for an investment into our products for our core customer groups, sellers and real estate agents, and we continue making our products more effective and attractive. With that, let us move on to the Q&A.
Thank you. If you have a question for the speakers, please press zero one on your telephone keypad. Our first question comes from the line of Giles Thorne of Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Thank you. My first question was on average revenue per listing. If I remember correctly, in Q2, you put a free ad renewal into the premium branch of the package structure, which turned out to be really good timing, given that was exactly when sales lead time started to extend. I'd be interested to hear any quantification of how that impacted ARPU growth in the third quarter, and then perhaps more importantly, how it could impact ARPU growth into 2023. My second question is picking up on the launch of My Home, and then we've had a follow-up product launch, value indication.
You're really building product momentum around the theme of turning Hemnet from a place where people search for a new property to a place where a consumer can engage across the entire property life cycle. As we move into 2023, is it fair to assume more product launches and then associated product and technology investment? Any color on what you're intending to do, and how that links to your margin guidance, would be very useful. My final question is kind of linked to that, which is, yes, you're out there with the new brand awareness marketing campaign. You want to re-educate Swedes as to what Hemnet's all about, and obviously tie it to the product cycle you're building.
I'd just be interested to know what more marketing campaigns we can expect next year and the spend you'll be making there. Quite a lot there. I'm sorry about that, but hopefully it all makes sense. Thanks.
No problem. Good questions. We have three different themes. On the first theme on the Premium and the added feature of free renewal, I think it was a good timing on that, and that is also, I mean, a choice when we try to follow the market as we go in the product development. That was a clear choice for us to prioritize that change in that product. What we can say, we don't talk, I mean, we don't say anything about the conversion. We don't convey that. But what we can say is that that has worked very well and that we've seen an uptake in demand for that product.
It has exceeded the expectations for Premium. I can say. I think also we asked how that will kind of continue into 2023. I think the key thing here for us is to make sure that we'll continue being relevant to our partners and adding value. This is of course an ongoing theme for discussion internally, how we can prioritize and make sure that we improve and develop the products. That will be an ongoing theme I guess also for the next year, making sure that we have the best products out there.
On the second part on My Home and the momentum that you see and we see as well in kind of engaging with the consumer in throughout their property life. Yes, I think that I mean, we also see the momentum here, and we're very happy with the improvements and development that we had during Q3 in this area. We will continue, and we have also communicated our three pillar strategy, and we'll continue investing product development and in the momentum both for consumers, that is both the engagement part and the logged in My Home feature. On the seller part, like I said, previously, making sure that we have the best possible products and also continue working with pricing.
For the business customer, the third pillar to make sure that we'll transform and grow and broaden our product portfolio with more Hemnet unique advertisements. We don't see anything that would change kind of that direction. It's more about timing, I would say, and more making sure that the product roadmap we have is relevant in the current market. We'll continue doing that, and that of course, I mean, I think that we are very well-positioned in the business model, but also being a profitable growth company. I mean, I'm super confident in Hemnet's ability to grow over time. It is harder to have short-term visibility in this market.
I mean, I can see the scenario here also that the volumes, for example, could decrease during the next coming quarters. I could also see actually the opposite, that people actually need to and want to sell. You could see two different scenarios playing out, and that is of course hard. I feel confident that, you know, we should continue invest in the product momentum and calibrate that. On the third question on brand awareness and the marketing, yes, we have done an investment in setting the new brand platform, and we've launched the first campaign. We plan to continue doing marketing.
I think as we grow it is important to continue having a certain amount that we actually invest in marketing. Of course we want to do that in a scalable way and an efficient way and again also following and making sure that we do the right investments. I hope that answered those three-
Thank you.
11.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from the line of Petri Kujala of Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hey, it's Petri Kujala from Morgan Stanley. Thanks for taking my questions. Maybe continuing on, first the brand campaign. So can you give some kind of insight into what type of cost was included in Q3, and should this change for the coming quarters? Because it's not, like, completely obvious to me where the cost is relating to these brand campaigns. Thanks.
I can start off, and maybe Nick can give some more color to this. Yes, I mean, the investments that we've done is a long-term investment in the brand, and that will, you know, will play out in different ways. The first step in the campaign is kind of the brand awareness or kind of reinforcing the brand position. And then we will use also the brand platform in more tactical marketing and sales activities over the years. So that is kind of the long-term goal and aim. Nick, I don't know if you want to put some more colors on them.
Yeah. With regards to the magnitude of the expense, I think what we can say is that this falls under other external costs and is.
Among the largest items in this group, along with our consultant expenses. This is not something that we give a specific number on. It is something that we feel feels comfortable in our margin guidance.
Okay. Yeah, great. Thanks. On personnel, you're now 10% above last year's level in Q3. You have more employees now, but personnel expenses were pretty much flat year-over-year. Is there something that I need to kind of understand better in terms of the employee cost base, or is there some kind of seasonality in wages or bonuses, et cetera?
Yes. I can start first, and then I'll also hand over to Nick to give some more color on the variation of a quarter over quarter. I think we have also communicated this, that I mean we're not really actually happy with the recruitment pace during Q2 and Q3, given the high ambition we have and the ambition of you know investing in the product development. I think the pace has been a bit slower during this quarter, and that has to do with an effect after the pandemic that we had a higher turnover internally. I think that will stabilize going forward. That is kind of the contextual answer. Then Nick can-
With regards to the cyclicality of the cost, what we see is that during Q1 and Q2, we actually accrue some vacation debt to our employees. During Q3, as employees take vacation, that then becomes a negative cost item, so it lowers our personnel cost. I think what can be said about this year as opposed to last year is that we saw, you know, a lot of vacation being taken out during the summer when people could travel again. That is driving the variance.
Yeah, great. Great. That's helpful. Then on debt, you took some debt on Q3, I suppose, to kind of boost up the buybacks. What's your kind of thinking on would you be willing to take on more debt to kind of put some lever on the balance sheet and do more buybacks? Also now, given what is happening in rates, what's your thinking on that?
Look, yes, I think we have the buyback mandate from the AGM, and that is the one we are sticking to at the moment. We have communicated a limit, or rather a target to our buyback. That is not to say that this is not a business that in the future could sustain more leverage, should the buyback target increase. For now, we aim to operate at this targeted SEK 450 buyback until at least the next AGM.
All right. Thanks. Last one from me. Did you see some revenue coming in this quarter from the agent visibility service that you have launched quite recently? I think last quarter the impact was still not really meaningful, so I would be kind of interested to hear what has the kind of feedback from agents been regarding that service, and are you seeing like revenue inflows from that already?
Yes, we're seeing revenue inflows. Is that meaningful yet? No, it's not really. I would say it, we're still early on. What we are doing currently, as we speak, is that we'll continue working with the awareness part, both for agent and consumer. I mean, I think yesterday we actually added that to both the app and web, so you can actually search for a broker. That's also super important step in doing that. During the fall, a lot of focus on go-to-market and sales. Yes, revenue, but not like any meaningful impact yet.
Okay. That's helpful. Thanks a lot. That's all from me. Thank you.
Our next question comes from the line of Eirik Rohstad of Carnegie. Please go ahead.
Yes. Hi, team. Eirik here from Carnegie. Thank you for taking my questions. Maybe we can do them one by one. If we start on the real estate developer side, you call out a couple of new initiatives, renewed listings, project pages, et cetera. When do you kind of expect that to really kick in and contribute to growth?
I mean, we expect those improvements to kick in quite immediately actually. I think to add, the renewal is a very concrete value add to the property developers. I think just to highlight also from that customer groups, as we're seeing an increased uptake for these new services, we're also seeing a more challenged market out there, meaning that some property developers also are a bit hesitant in marketing in the short term, I believe. Yes, on one end we're seeing uptake, but then on the other hand, we're also seeing a bit of hesitation at the same time.
It's hard to say anything else, or say anything more about that, rather that this is what we're seeing at the moment.
Perfect. Just a quick follow-up as well. I see noted that, you know, brokers without an annual contract, the annual contracts that you do have in terms of, you know, revenue in an average quarter, how much does those annual contracts make up and when are they up for renewal in the sense that, you know, you highlight the uptake, but also somewhat of a maybe increased uncertainty?
We don't disclose any numbers on the annuals and the agreement and contracts. I would say generally when we talk about our contracts and agreements, it's often on a yearly basis, and they're often set during the fall for the following year, often.
Perfect. Okay. Thank you. I've got a question on the advertising revenues, which, you know, it's improved its year-over-year growth rate sequentially from Q2 to Q3, but on pretty, you know, easier comps. How should we think about this revenue line in the short term and into next year? Could you also maybe say anything about, you know, dynamics on those, you know, longer term versus more short term contracts?
I think what we can say is that we continue seeing high demand from most business customers. I think that the sales team has done a tremendously good job also in working with pricing to kind of couple lower traffic with better pricing. It is an important area. What we also can highlight is that we've seen some positive reactions to the updates we did and communicated earlier on the bank integration. That is good. This is an ongoing work. It's not a priority for next year.
We prioritize building the new products for agents and property developers, but this is of course an important foundation and we continue seeing high demand and the sales team is doing a good job in handling that demand.
Perfect. Thank you. Just one last one for me, if I may. You know, Cecilia, you commented that the price at which you base your product has increased, not decreased as asking prices are still on the rise. I assume that maybe, you know, at some point the kind of bid-ask spread in the market will narrow and that asking prices might come a bit down. How should we think about that potential decline in terms of pricing of the packages and kind of how that will affect average revenue per listing in the coming quarters, and also kind of how dynamic you can be there to potentially offset some decline in asking prices?
Eirik, what we have said in the past is that we feel like there is some pricing headroom remaining, on one hand. On the other hand, there is not the perfect correlation between asking price and the price for our products. So just because there is, for example, a 6% decrease in asking prices, that does not correlate exactly to a drop in our products. We feel comfortable that there is enough headroom and enough demand for our products to withstand price decreases even for asking prices.
That's very clear. Thank you for taking my questions.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Just to remind you that if you wish to ask a question, please press zero one on your telephone keypads. There are no further questions on the telephones at this time. Please go ahead, speakers.
We have some questions that have come in on email that we will take now. The first question is, "Is there any risk of amortization requirements changing or any other changes, I assume regulatory, that could impact the housing market?
I think it is clear. I mean, it's an ongoing discussion in media around amortization rules. I think, yeah, we don't expect any changes to that rule.
Thank you. The next question is, if we can provide some more details on product launches for agents, and also to give a brief explanation on Mäklartipset.
We don't disclose the exact roadmap, but what we can say is that we have during the year and also in this quarter taken some really important steps within the agent area. As I mentioned previously in this call, yesterday we launched the search broker feature in both apps and web. We'll continue taking steps going forward in that area. Sorry, it was another question as well, right?
Mäklartipset.
The Mäklartipset. Mäklartipset is a value-added product for brokers. It's a top of the list product that we sell. We have a launch every November where agents can buy that product for the upcoming year. That launch is now in mid-November.
Thank you. The next question is listing volumes and trends for Q4. I will just remind you that we do publish listing volumes on hemnet.se/statistik, and we do this on a weekly basis for supply, traffic, and listings, so you can track this there. A final question was on personnel cost. We have briefly touched on the variation already. What is the underlying base for Q4 that should be used? Q4 is a bit of a strange one because it is also a quarter impacted by vacation. Of course it is more similar to Q1 and Q2, given that Q3, the majority of the quarter is in the summer months. Those questions were from Catherine O'Neill at Citi. I don't have any other questions on email.
With that, I think we should wrap up. Operator, please.
Okay. This now concludes our presentation. Thank you all for attending. Participants, you may now disconnect.