Earnings Call: Q4 2020

Feb 25, 2021

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Osisko Gold Royalties Q4 and Year 2020 Results Conference Call. After the presentation, we will conduct a question and answer session. Please note that this call is being recorded today, February 25, 2021, at 10 a. M. Eastern Time. Today on the call, we have Mr. Sandeep Singh, President and Chief Executive Officer and Mr. Frederic Ruel, Chief Financial Officer and Vice President, Finance. I would now like to turn the meeting over to your host for today's call, Mr. Sandeep Singh. Thank you, operator. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking the time for an update on our Q4 2020 full year results. So Fred and I will walk you through the results this morning, and Sean will also be available during the Q and A. The presentation I'm following is on our website. So please, if you haven't already, you can pick it up there, and I'll do my best to refer to page numbers Starting with the forward looking statements on Slide 2, please be mindful that we will be making forward looking remarks. On Slide 3, just kicking into the highlights for the year. I would say to start off with despite the obvious challenges with To COVID this year, for us and more importantly for our operating partners, we ended up having a very strong year, Earning just over 66,000 ounces for the year above our revised guidance, taking into account the shutdowns that we experienced in Q2 and ended the year kind of back where we started in terms of a run rate with all our assets now Chugging along at their full capacity, we believe. That led to record cash flows, obviously, And revenue is buoyed by the fact that the decreased production for the year was compensated by higher gold prices and we look Forward to hard gold and silver prices, we look forward to continued positive outlook from a gold and silver perspective going forward. Our margins stayed high 94%, the highest in our peer group by virtue of having more royalties and streams and more free ounces and cheap ounces, if you will, and generated a significant amount of adjusted earnings over the course of the year, dollars 0.27 a share on a basic share basis. And Fred will walk you through some of the more detail around that. I think worth pointing out For the quarter, a lot of what you're seeing, and I think many of the analysts who cover us have already picked up on this, is some slight bit of noise due to The Cisco Development spin out transaction that concluded in Q4 and a little bit of a consolidation around that. But when you take into account Some of those one time items, many of which were non cash oriented or also disproportionately picked up by Osisko Development, We get to a point where we're quite happy with the quarter that we're coming out of today. And again, Fred will go through that in a little bit more detail. We did acquire buybacks and some shares at the worst of COVID. So we did buy back some very cheap stock During the year for a total of about just under $4,000,000 and we declared quarterly dividends summing up to $0.20 a share, Still the highest yield in our peer group and something that's very important to us as we go forward. With no disrespect to the accountants among us, I think more importantly than any of the noise in the Financials is the fact that the business is in an excellent shape as we ended 2020 and as we start 2021. Our producing assets are outperforming almost without exception. Our development assets are advancing steadily. Our Exploration or earliest days development assets as well are delivering several positive surprises, and we expect that to continue to happen as More and more exploration dollars are being spent in the sector after several years of restraint spending on that side. We expect that catch up to Benefit our portfolio quite disproportionately. And then again, Q4 marked the end the last quarter of our spend on Barkerville, our direct That was a finite period of time. It lasted between the North Spirit transaction to the Cisco development spin out the year and certainly created a lot of value in the process. Skipping over to Slide 4 to finish that thought, 2020 was an important strategic year for us. The culmination of that North Spirit transaction into a fiscal development within the span of roughly a year. And again, as I said, creating a significant amount of value that we now look forward to getting on the credit and value for. Since that's been out, Sean, Sysco Development has raised circa $250,000,000 to unlock a significant amount of value in that asset base For the benefit of the Cisco Development, but also the benefit of OR. And we look forward to that process continuing as that public company has really just gotten on its feet here at the start of the year. In that process, we also acquired, as you all already know, the San Antonio gold project or the stream on the San Antonio gold project in Mexico. From my perspective, that's the cheapest 9,000 ish downstream I've seen anyone collect anywhere. Obviously, that asset needs to go through permitting in Mexico, and the team is pushing that forward substantially at Atascisco Development. But What we see there on our stream is the upside potential. Cisco Development has already Acquired a crushing circuit that can produce that can run about 15,000 tons per day. If you start to talk about those types of run rates or anything close to it, it's a substantially higher We've been talking about. So we look forward to that coming into the midterm of our pipeline. Also throughout the year, we did some other things that we think added significant value. We improved the Silverstream on Gibraltar At the right time, that mine continues to now benefit from significantly higher copper prices. So we're happy with our added exposure to Gibraltar. We also acquired an additional 15% of royalty package that we already own, predominantly on the Island Gold and Lamaque mines. So adding to our royalties in those two mines, I think it's safe to say it was good timing and both of those are now going through some pretty important exploration and expansion basis. We also announced the strategic partnership with Regulus, whereby we added a significant royalty that Paid for that transaction off the bat on what is a large asset today, one that's only getting bigger and ultimately, we think a large company asset in a pretty important copper price environment and also gained exposure to additional royalties that they may buy back over time. And as you all know, concluded the financing with the investment market back in April, done at a premium during the worst of COVID, so strong endorsement from our partners there. If you move to Slide 5, just a recap of the producing asset base. Again, I'll reemphasize that it's doing extremely well. Some of you cover on the analyst side, I'm sure some of you covered these other names. You've been picking up on the positives that have been We're seeing good news starting with obviously on our flagship assets at Canadian MarTech where that line has gone from Open pit toward the end of this decade to now talking about production 2039 plus a month. So we look forward to our flagship assets, beating our flagship assets for decades to come. And I'll pick up on some other positive Advancement a little bit later in the document. And then you see a split Of our production for 2020 by commodity as well, we are gold and silver dominated. That's a core part of of our portfolio and for anybody that has a Reddit blog, feel free to point out the level of solar contribution that we had of about 24% within the company in 2020. On Slide 6, just a little bit more On where we've come from and I guess where we're going, you'll notice the production annuals for 2019, 2020 and then our guidance of 2021 ranging between 78,000 and 82,000 ounces, so midpoint of 80, Again, still expect it to be the highest cash margin in the business when you exclude the offtakes. I think it's worth pointing out though, it It might feel like that's getting back to 2019 levels, but I would remind everyone that our 2019 production included a significant amount of Boostrack contribution, that stream and optic was bought back. We got paid for it, but It did take down our production levels. It also included Renard, which we're now intentionally keeping off the side until we can fully benefit from those cash flows. So taking that into account, in 2020, we're back at the same level of production With those ounces gone and with many of our mines shut down and now we look forward to kind of a 20% Increase whether you look at 2019 or 2020 off the same asset base. So a fair bit of growth to compensate for those other factors. And then more importantly, as you look to the right, Some significant assets that are in our pipeline that are maturing, coming along at a pretty steady pace. I would say all maybe with one exception here, Moving forward steadily and we look forward to this paid for growth coming into the company, especially at a time when new The actions in the sector on the royalty and streaming side have gotten, I think, tariffs stay more expensive and as a result a little bit riskier. We look forward to this paid for pipeline starting to deliver for us. In the guidance numbers for 2021, I think we made the point in the press release that Mantel's has gotten deferred a little bit. We're talking about a few month delays. When you take into account COVID, I think that's frankly pretty de minimis. So it doesn't bother me in the least that, that mantle's Expansion has been pushed into 2022 as opposed to capturing some of 2021. I think the important news is all of this is still in front of us and all of it is still progressing quite well. With that said, I will pass it off to Fred on Slide 7 to walk you through some of the more detail oriented aspects of the quarter, and then I'll pick Thank you, Sandy. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. As you know, busy year for Osisko with COVID, where some operators shut down or reduced their operations mostly last spring and of course, The completion of the RTO transaction in November, creating a Cisco development, will raise over $250,000,000 in the last month. We earned 18,829 GEOs in Q4, excluding, as Sandeep explained, the GEOs earned from the Renard Diamonds treatment in Q4 for a total in 2020 of over 66,000 GEOs exceeding our revised forecast. In Q4, we generated record quarterly revenues of $48,800,000 from royalties and streams. Operating cash flows of $39,000,000 and an operating cash margin on our royalties and streams of 94%. An amount of USD 15,000,000 was also repaid in Q4 of the credit facility. As presented under Slide 7 of the presentation. We recorded record revenues from royalties and streams of over $156,000,000 last year compared to $140,000,000 in 2019. Cash flows from operating activities reached a record 100 and $8,000,000 compared to $92,000,000 in 2019. If we go on Page 8, we have a summary of our earnings and adjusted earnings. Net income was $16,900,000 or $0.10 per share compared to a net loss of $234,000,000 in 2019. The loss in 2019 was due to significant impairment charges. Adjusted earnings were $43,700,000 or 0.27 dollars per share compared to $41,900,000 in 2019. On Slide 9, We present our quarterly and annual results. GEOs from gold and silver production were higher in Q4 As all mines have returned to their pre COVID level, geos from diamonds have decreased. As I said, we have excluded the geos from the Renault Starting in Q4. Revenues increased in Q4 from €51,000,000 in 2019 to $4,600,000 in 2020. And you'll note a decrease in our annual revenues, but this was due to the sale of the Bruce jackoff stake in September of 2019, which was partially offset by a higher realized price of gold and silver. Our average gold price per ounce Sold amounted to CAD 2,444 in Q4 2020 and CAD 2,273 for the year, Gross profit for the 4th quarter increased to €32,800,000 up from $23,900,000 in Q4 2019. For the year, our gross profit was $104,000,000 up from $83,000,000 in 2019. Our net cash flows from operating for the whole year, up 9 18% compared to the previous year. Our adjusted earnings in Q4 amounted To $12,000,000 or $0.07 per share, reflecting a tax expense of CNY 5,800,000 or US4.5 million On the acquisition of the San Antonio Stream, this tax expense will be paid by a Cisco development in Q1 of this year, but is, of course, included in our consolidated results for 2020. Excluding this onetime tax expense, Adjusted earnings would have been $17,800,000 or $0.11 per share. I'd like to remind So that additional expenses of approximately $4,000,000 related to the RTO transaction are included in our operating expenses in 2020, including a non cash lift in fee of 1,800,000 These expenses were shared between the Cisco Go Royalty and the Cisco Development, but are all included in our consolidated results. These expenses were, of course, one time items. If we go on Page 10 of the presentation, we present a breakdown of our cash margin for Q4 and the whole year. The cash margin on our royalties increased in Q4 to reach EUR 34,300,000 compared to $26,300,000 at the previous year. For 2020, the cash margin on royalties reached $111,000,000 an increase of 14 $15,000,000 compared to 2019. The cap margin on our streams amounted to $11,300,000 in Q4 $36,300,000 for the year, up from $9,100,000 $29,500,000 respectively in 2019, resulting in a cash margin on our royalties and streams of 93.45 percent in Q4 and 93.9 percent for the whole year 2020. Our total cash margin reached $46,300,000 in the 4th quarter, dollars 10,600,000 higher than the previous year. For 2020, our Total cash margin reached EUR 150,000,000 an increase of EUR 20,000,000 And finally, if we go to Slide 11, you will find a summary of our financial position. Our consolidated cash balance was $303,000,000 at the end of the year, including $105,000,000 for Osisko Go royalties and $197,000,000 for Osisko Development. Osisko Gold Royalties held investments having a value of $260,000,000 at the end of December in addition to our investment in Osisko Development valued at over $750,000,000 for a total of $1,000,000,000 in value. Our debt amounted To $400,000,000 on December 31, we have repaid an amount of $15,000,000 in Q4 Under our revolving credit facility, in Q1 of this year, we have also repaid our $50,000,000 debenture with Using our credit facility, therefore reducing our interest payable by approximately 1.5% on that debt. Including the accordion available, our credit our available credit on the facility is over $385,000,000 as of today. Back to you, Sandy. Thanks very much, Fred. Skipping forward to Slide 12, and obviously, Fred will be around For any detailed questions thereafter. Moving to Slide 12 and picking up on Canadian Malartic, obviously, our flagship asset is doing exceptionally well. From an open pit perspective, based on guidance provided by the operator, we're expecting our best year yet from the open pit, obviously, benefiting From the higher grade contributions of Barnat, so expecting north of 35,000,000 almost 36,000 ounces of GEOs When you account for the silver contribution as well. And the biggest catalyst there and the biggest catalyst in our portfolio obviously would be on Slide 13, the underground construction decision by Nikko and Yamana as well as the first set of economics underpinning that put out just a couple of weeks ago. Huge catalyst. I think it's fair to say for us we've had A flagship asset that was finite in life otherwise, 2027, 2028, 2029, whatever people's Expectations were of the open pit mine life that's now turned into 2 decades plus, importantly only with 50% of the reserves and resource That amount to about 14,500,000 ounces right now embedded in that mine plan. So still a lot of upside to come based on everything we're hearing From our operating partners. Added to that, that upside, I think it seems disproportionately on the East Goldie zone where most of the Our 11 rigs focusing on that area. Almost this year double the amount of the exploration that's been put into the asset to date in aggregate. So we still expect a lot of potential positives to come from that. We're missing a little bit of detail between what falls on what falls within our 5% 3% ground on East Malartic. But I think with a little bit of accounting for that, you can kind of approximate a 4.5% NSR overall for us on the entire So can underscore the importance of that. Our flagship asset has essentially doubled in value, More than doubled in duration, and we look forward to continued positive news on that front. If you flip forward to Slide 14, our other significant producing assets, I'd say, doing quite well at Mentos. The expansion we're now expecting to tie in at the end of the year. So we haven't given ourselves really any credit for that in 2021. Again, I think delays measured in a matter of a few months when it comes to COVID in South America should be seen as wins. So we look forward to that significant increase in Silver production to kick in for us next year and every year they're active. On the Eagle side, Quite happy to see positive Q4 for Victoria Gold. The production was up over 42,000 ounces, a 20% increase over Q3. Again, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but we didn't get the benefit of that in our Q4. Obviously, we always have a bit of a delay, so we look forward to that Ramp up continuing to benefit us and the operator. They're into the coldest winter months, so they have been for some time now. And as per plan, not stacking as a result, but completing, importantly, much of their optimization efforts during that time frame. So we look forward to Continued step change improvement from Eagle and much like everywhere else in our portfolio, there's a lot of positive Steady state or frankly slightly better than steady state that they've guided towards, which was 250,000 ounces per annum, guidance 270 and returning focus on exploration. I read through a Fairly positive exploration tone to their last set of disclosures. So we look forward to that starting to benefit us and the mine. But frankly, steady state after the last couple of years of Eleonore, I think, is also considered a win from my perspective at least. On Slide 15, I won't go through all of these next pages in detail, but I think they're available if we want to come back to any specific questions Importantly, I said it before, I'll say it again, the producing assets could not be doing better as a whole. We see positive news across the spectrum. On this page, I'll pick up Island Gold, only because Alamos is the most recent to put out results. Pan Island continues to get bigger. Reserves increased, resources increased significantly, Further justifying that expansion that they announced last year, which to remind people is about a 70% increase in And we benefit from that on our 1.4% royalty ground. But importantly, a lot of the recent exploration results To the east and at depth are onto our 2% and 3% royalty ground. A significant portion of what we can see in that The new inferred category that's almost 15 grams per tonne is on to our 2% and 3% royalty ground. So that is a Significant assets getting better all the time, and I believe there's a circa $25,000,000 budget plan for this year and the commentary from Malmo has been excellent in terms of potential for further growth. That's one example. I think that story is playing out across the spectrum. On Slide 16, In terms of the growth assets, the development assets, I should say, again, all of them progressing quite well, All of them moving forward, at least on this page. We look forward to a lot of catalysts on the Cisco development story, which comprises, obviously, as everyone knows, Caribou and San Antonio, we'll get a little bit of we'll get small production, I guess, From each of this year, from the satellite to Cariboo as well as from a stockpile of San Antonio, but those are not the more important facets of either of those stories. It's nice, but obviously, we expect the focus within that company to be on the larger projects at Caribou and San Antonio. Importantly, as we said earlier, Sean and the team there are exceptionally well funded right now Pushed hard and we are entering into a catalyst rich phase for statistical development with respect to drilling, Resource updates, studies and permitting. So we look forward to that news flow this year. On Windfall, This is the Cisco Mining Flagship asset in Quebec, a pretty unique combination of grade and size With the total resource now up at 6,000,000 ounces based on their last report, M and I of about 1.9%, I believe it was Inferred the rest of the way to get you to 6. And the grades continuing to, if not stay steady, frankly, improve. So we look forward to Not only continued exploration results there, continued infill drilling that will increase that M and I, culminating in a feasibility And even on Horn 5, which is a significant resource, 6,000,000 ounces of reserves, gold equivalent, circa 10,000,000 ounces of resources, We get eventually the silver off that mine, which is obviously increasingly more valuable than what we've modeled in the past. It's an important year for Falco. They've made good strides with Glencore last year. We look forward to that trend continuing and then breaking the back of a path forward for that mine. Slide 17, again, I won't go through these individually, but just other large assets that are moving forward in Hermosa. We look forward to a pre feasibility study from South32 there, which will Customized across the T's in terms of the understanding of that deposit and the path forward for it, but it's the one of, if not the best undeveloped polymetalic acid in the world. Fine point as well, moving through maybe some of the boring phases of mine development, the phases that matter, and look forward to that continuing this year. And then on Renard and the Valsar, We talked about them quite a bit. I'm sure we'll talk about them again later on. The 2 big option value assets for us, We're a year into those kind of restructuring phases. And I would say on both, frankly, ahead of where I expected to be within a year. On the diamond side, diamond prices for Renard have bounced back to $80 a carat so far north of where they were pre shutdown. I think the safe to say the Argyle shutdown and removal of 15% of diamond supply globally is starting to play out. And importantly, it's not just for Renard, it's across the space. So hopefully that diamond sector becomes a little bit healthier, which can only benefit Bernard. And then on the Malsar, We say you're half more than half built, but it's significantly more than half built. There, the trick It's access and a path forward, but the team on-site has had unfeathered access to the site For months, the government wants to think to see that asset go forward. They certainly need foreign direct investments. So we look forward to Hopefully, some progress on that front this year. On Slide 18 and 19, we have kind of other layers of earlier stage assets or in some cases earlier stage assets to talk about. I won't go through them. The point of this is And it's slightly not exhaustive, these two pages. The point of it is, it's a really deep portfolio and it's getting significant and increasing amount of exploration dollars spent on it. And it's proving itself across the board. So we look forward to continued success by our operating partners on those fronts. Maybe on Slide 19, the 1 or 2 that I'll pick out to talk about. Eldorado, we have The 1% NSR on the Lamaque mine, seeing a maiden resource as significant as it was at Ormak, 800,000 ounces of just shy of 10 grams within a year of discovery hold, if I'm not mistaken. That's a positive, especially when you take into account The mill there at Sigma is quite underfed and certainly there's ability to increase capacity. So we look forward to that story playing out. And then Eldorado's proposed acquisition of QNX, I think also benefits us as we have not a 1% NSR, but a 2.5% NSR on that ground and look forward to increased exploration work by Eldorado once it's in there stable. I think I'll pause there, except to say that for a reset year, 2020 worked out quite well in my mind, A lot of advancements, the portfolio is doing quite well. We remain focused as we start 2021 on getting paid For that existing portfolio, there's a lot of value within it that we don't think we're currently getting credit for. That is our main priority. We'll remain disciplined Thereafter and try to take our spots in terms of improving it. But we think we did a lot of the hard work in 2020. I think many of you have heard us say that heard me say that. And I think we have a lot of room to catch up this year. So with that said, operator, happy to take questions. Thank The first question comes from Cosmos Chiu from CIBC. Your line is open. Hi, thanks Sandeep, Fred and team. Maybe my first question is on your 2021 guidance here. It's certainly good to see that it's increasing by quite a bit from 2020 levels. But can you give us a bit more color in terms of how it could look like on a quarter over quarter basis? The reason why I ask is Sandeep, as you mentioned, For example, the Eagle Mine there right now is in the coldest months, not stacking, but at the same time, it didn't really get the full benefit out Q4 given that there's timing differences. So how should we look at it in terms of, I guess, more specifically Eagle and how that could impact your overall production quarter over quarter. We're expecting lower in the 1st few quarters and then higher in the later quarters. Could you you give us a bit more color, Santi? Sure. I can try Cosmos and good morning. Look, I think that's a fair assessment, but I think overall, We didn't get the benefit of that Q4 number, so that will drift into Q1. There's always I mean, it happens on all of our assets. There's a bit of a lag In terms of when ounces are produced and when we get them from the refineries, at the end of the day, I think that generally tends to wash itself out. Eagle is one exception where as it's starting to get to its full run rate, we'll continue to have that story play out, that short delay. So you're right, there may be a little bit of volatility. But overall, I think even with the colder months here and the lack of stacking, I think there's been a lot of improvement At the mine, I think they've taken the opportunity to, whatever you want to call it, debottleneck or work on their optimization efforts. So hopefully, there isn't that kind of dip after Q1 into Q2, and we see continued improvement towards the end results. It's premature for me to say because it's not in our control, but I do look forward to maybe a little bit of variability on that one Quarter over quarter, but generally, I expect that variability to be positive, if that makes sense. Yes, for sure. And then Sandeep, can you remind us What's the usual lag here at Ugo? And when would you expect them to start stacking again at the mine? Yes. So maybe I'll take the other the second question first. And Fred, I don't know if you have a specific answer month wise off the top of your head on Eagle. But I would say soon in terms of stacking again. I don't know if that when that means, That means in March, I remember it was a 90 day proposed shutdown from just a stacking perspective that continue to mine minus The coldest days where they're worried about just the inefficiencies of trying to do things. So I would It's a 90 day period of the coldest part of the year. So I'm speculating a little bit, but I think it's pretty fair to say that we're through most of that by now. Fred, I don't know if you have an answer. If you don't, we can get back to you, Cosmo. But do you have an answer in terms of the typical delay month wise at Eagle? Well, I would say between 1 2 months usually. You see we received, for example, a good delivery on January 4, 2021, that was, of course, related to production of end of November December. So sometimes there is this 1 to 2 month delay that can create some volatility between 1 month 1 quarter to another, but that's usually within 1 or 2 months that will receive Our delivery for the royalties. Great. Jeff, thanks. Maybe switching gears a little bit here. Sandeep, as you mentioned, one of the highlights many highlights, I guess, but one of them is the Alamos and their discovery or their increase in inferred ounces here at Island Gold. So my understanding is that a lot of those inferred ounces higher grades came from Just to confirm, as you mentioned, I guess, you are the NSR over there is higher At 2% to 3%, yes, that's correct. And look, I think it's tough to say exactly. We have our own views, but They're based on our views. But I think definitely as you go to the East, you get into our 2% ground. As you go deeper, Including some of the deeper inferred ounces that are currently in the mix, you get into both our 2% 3% ground. So we have our internal views as to what That's averages out to, but at the end of the day, what it is, is positive. And then I understand that Alamos recently acquired Trillium Mining, which is again even further East Den Island Gold East. Do you have any kind of royalty on that ground by any chance? Not to my knowledge. I don't think we do. I would prefer assessment to say that we don't. But I think overall, I think all of that is positive. For the most part, I think What we're seeing for Alamos getting back to their acquisition of 1 of the other royalties that was on the ground, The exploration efforts we put into it, I keep reading results, the $25,000,000 roughly, I believe it's exact, but roughly $25,000,000 And the exploration budget this year, that acquisition of other ground in the area just shows the importance of that asset within the portfolio. It's obviously working out exceptionally well for them, And we hope that continues overall to their benefit, obviously, disproportionately, but also to ours. Of course. And maybe going to Eldorado's Lamaque, as you mentioned, they made a recent they made the discovery last Actually, the inaugural inferred resources at Oramac here. I think if I look at it, Some of the further of course, they're still expanding Ormat, but they're also looking at new sort of areas. Fortune is 1. You're also looking at the area between Ormak and the Parallel Zone. I just want to get a better understanding in terms of Your ground for that royalty here and would it include everything that's expansionary At Oromac and then also at some of these new zones as well like Fortune and this area between Oromac and Parallel. Yes. Look, I can definitely go back to double check for you, Cosmos. And if I misspeak, I'll correct myself. But I think the answer is yes On the 1% ground and then what is incremental to that is the 2.5% ground that we have on it might it has a little I think it misses a couple of post its stamps, But on the QMX ground particularly, it's 2.5% on everything of consequence, including the Bonifant area. So I think it's pretty safe to understand it as 1% on everything that Eldorado has today and then 2.5% on anything they acquire through QMex. And then Sandeep, maybe if I can, one last question here. As you mentioned in your opening remarks, you talked about looking forward Higher gold and silver prices, which is great. But in that context, could you maybe comment on how that could potentially impact the overall sort of new streaming, new royalty financing acquisition market? And then maybe bigger picture, how is that market right now? Sure. No, it's a good question. And we've talked about it, Cosmos. I think we've I've probably talked about it with many of you on the phone. Look, I think it's safe to say, I said it earlier, the market for new transactions, that It's gotten tougher. I mean with equity markets open, with debt available, with new players on the smaller end, private equity is very active On the middle to larger end, operators buying back royalties in significant ways in 2020. If you think about Alamos' acquisition, you think about Newcrest on Lundin Gold. So I think it's anyone who tells you there isn't more competition in the sector is lying. So I think that's fair. It happens in the sector. I mean, it ebbs and flows. There are certain periods of time when our capital as a royalty company is more required. And you have to wait for those moments, I think, is our view. I'm certainly happy that Sean and the We have been investing in growth, building this portfolio over the last 7 years, such that we have so much growth that we've already paid for in lower commodity price environments that we can benefit from. Not only that we can benefit from as it comes online, but also that more open equity markets can push those assets faster They've been pushed in the past several years. I think it does it make it more competitive? Yes. At the same time, does the pie grow When new assets are advanced, new assets are constructed, it does. So I think, generally speaking, there's probably been a lack of equity dollars To fund many of these projects, there's an over reliance on debt and streaming, which can benefit us as royalty and streaming companies, but it can also hurt us when things go wrong. So I think finding the right balance within that and having generally more equity dollars And the mix is a good thing. It's certainly a good thing for our portfolio, the way it's constructed with as much growth as we have on the come in the next several years. And because of that, we can afford to be, I think, a lot more disciplined, maybe more disciplined than anyone in our sector right now. I certainly wouldn't want to be building a portfolio from scratch. I'm happy we have the one we do. Great. Thanks, Sandeep. And those are the questions I have looking forward The remainder of 2021. Thanks so much, Cazma. And the next question comes from the line of Jackie Kroglowski from BMO Capital Markets. Your line is open. Thanks very much. I just have one question, I guess, more strategic for You mentioned this at the beginning, so I just wanted some clarification on your North Spirit division. Now that you've Restructured with ODB, is North Spirit still something that's active and separate For yourselves, are you still pursuing that avenue with private equity? Or is that sort of mission has accomplished with the creation of OTV? Thanks. Yes. Good morning, Jackie. Thanks for your question. No, it's the latter. And hopefully, we were clear with that when we did it. I mean, North Spirit was the working name. I guess, when the transaction was announced In the fall of 2019, North Spirit, in our mind, was renamed the Cisco Development Corp. And started life in the fall of 2020. So yes, that's very much North Spirit reincarnated, if you will. I think So that hopefully answers your question on that. Tangential to that, if the question is, are we still looking to Traditional accelerator type business, I think I've been pretty clear with everybody that, that business has been in its purest form Wildly successful for us, not only on a financial perspective, but also in terms of building out the pipeline. So if we can find Continue to find avenues to deploy $5,000,000 or $10,000,000 to turn them into $50,000,000 and $100,000,000 and take back valuable royalties Without competition or with far less competition as opposed to having to pay up for them, picking up on the last conversation we had. I think that's something we'll look to do all day long. The gating item on that is not interest. It's availability of assets that we actually like. So On the bigger end, to your point, you found the right home for Barkerville. That was always the intent when we announced the transaction. And it was to put that right put that back into the right vehicle so that it had value for us. That value, I think, is undeniable in terms of how it's gotten created. And we're happy being back in our lane, so to speak, as we help the company. Yes. I guess you answered it exactly. I guess I was kind of wondering if you would use that North Spirit vehicle to do other accelerator model type transactions. So I think you've answered that perfectly. So thanks very much for that. I think Coz covered off My other question, so I will leave it there. I'll talk to you next week. Thanks very much, Cindy. No problem. No problem. Look forward to talking next week, Jack. And the next question comes from the line of Ralph Profiti from 8 Capital. Your line is open. I can't hear you. Can you repeat that? Okay. I'll do that. I want to come back specifically to the 2021 guidance. And maybe we can exclude Renard because there seems to be some good disclosure on the potential contribution. But maybe Sandeep, can you tell me which That you're comfortable seeing that there's upside versus current expectation and overall performance versus guidance? Because there seems to be a fair amount of conservatism baked To the 2021 guidance, is it fundamentals where you could see some contribution where there's none? Sure. Happy to do that, Ralph, to the extent I can, obviously. Look, I think conservatism is probably a fair word, And it was intentional. I think with Mantos, we've for our guidance perspective, we kicked that in Next year, just didn't feel it was worthwhile trying to quibble about a month here or there. Initially, It happened in phases, but initially that expansion was due to get completed midyear. And then as soon as COVID hit, Normal just normal, sorry, I'm not being distracted, but normal construction delays Plus, thank you so much. Plus, COVID related delays pushed that to the end of the year. I think saying at the end of the year And getting the benefit of it in 2022 is fine by me. I think we've also been a little bit conservative on the Eagle side. Last year, We, like everybody else, budgeted more and did receive it. So I think we've taken a slightly conservative track on that side, and hopefully, there's some upside there. And then also on things like San Antonio, we've said really only given ourselves the benefit of a trickle of stockpile production really at the end of the year. The prize there is the bigger asset. But despite the desire and What's happening is pushing that forward, pushing that asset forward faster. It's still reliant on Mexican permitting and bureaucracy, which within COVID, I think you've probably seen throughout the sector has We've gotten pretty delayed. So I think overall, we've taken the task, including with Bernard. I mean, we took the decision last year that until we're getting paid for those It's unfair to put them in guidance. So we've tried to take a conservative approach to everything. Hopefully, when that asset comes back and we are getting paid on it, it's a positive net surprise This is something we're putting out there and then trying to chase. So I don't know if that answers your question directly. It probably answers But that's the path we've taken, and I think it will probably serve as well. Understood. No, that's great feedback. I appreciate the color. Thank you. My pleasure. And the next question comes from the line of Trevor Turnbull from Scotiabank. Your line is open. Yes, thank you. Sandeep, just a follow-up on San Antonio, and I may have you may have just addressed this with Ralph, but I didn't quite catch it. Did you say San Antonio, there are a few ounces potentially coming through, but did you include that in the 2021 guidance? I did, and maybe I'll let Sean speak for San Antonio himself as opposed to me paraphrasing for him. Even if we did, which we did, Trevor, it's small. That's not the larger production So us factoring in a little bit of it this year does not change the answer all that much. But Sean, maybe if If you're on, you can pick up on the general plan for San Antonio as a Yes, sure. Yes. So I mean, we expect a little bit of production at Antonio, this year according to where we sit right now from the existing stockpile is about 1.1 1,200,000 tons of stockpile that we hope they have under irrigation sometime in Q4. And it's It's mostly oxide, so it's fairly quick. But I don't anticipate it to be a big contributor this year, but certainly 2020 will too looks like a great year For the development there, we're also pursuing the permit for the larger Sapucci project. We have the necessary permits for the stockpile now, But the big tail on the year will be to get Sapuchi itself under leach, which we hope to be able to build next year. And we've already secured a 15,000 ton a day crushing and screening circuit from the Botanica mine for that purpose, and we're shipping that to Mexico as we speak. And I think you just answered the second part of my question, Sean. So the permit is only for the larger project and what you have On the stockpile that you'll be processing towards end of this year is not dependent on getting that permit or kind of getting delayed by COVID? No, it's already mined that stuff. The big thing about the stockpile is we just have to restack it on a purpose built leach pad. So it's basically load, haul, screen and a little bit of crushing. And hopefully, the equipment that we have in hand now, we can set that up and get that running as I say for Q4. Okay, perfect. And then I have a bit of a financial question, and I guess in some ways, it's also related to San Antonio. You did mention, I guess Fred and Sandeep both talked a little bit about the noise related to the transaction and how that's come through on the consolidated financials. Going forward, do you think there's much noise left to shake out? Or will things be a little bit clearer other than the fact that they're consolidated in future quarters. Maybe I'll start, Fred, if I missed something you want to add, feel free. I'd say certainly we think it's mostly behind us, Trevor. I think the transaction itself was Pretty complicated, had a lot of facets to it. So that's all been factored into our Q4 for the most part. If I'm missing something Fred, you can But going forward, we do see clearer lines from that. We tried to incorporate as much of that as we could in Q4. And yes, there'll be continued ongoing noise with respect to the royalty business and The mining business, we've done in these set of financials and the MD and A, our best first effort of trying to separate that for you as analysts and investors, and we'll continue to do that and hopefully get a little bit better at it and smarter at it as we go. But that's certainly the intent, Trevor, Brad, did I miss anything? No, no. I mean all the all costs related The RTO, these onetime items were accounted for in 2020, and we are not expecting any additional costs Related to the transaction in 2021. And Fred, you I know you commented on this earlier. But specifically with respect to Q4, What was the tax impact you said from San Antonio kind of on the earnings in Q4? Yes. That was it was a tax payment of USD 4,500,000 in Mexico when there's because if you recall, that transaction was done just prior to the RTO, while Sapucci, which is holding the San Antonio project, was still a direct Sidaria Villasisco royalties, it's now also Sidaria Villasisco Development, it's still being consolidated. But the project was within Sapucci. And when the Cisco Bermuda, our subsidiary, acquired a stream From the San Antonio project for US15 $1,000,000 There's a 30% corporate tax in Mexico and the treatment of a When you are receiving the deposit in Mexico is different than in Canada. In Canada, the taxes on that revenue will be deferred to the moment that You will produce the ounces. In Mexico, it's taxed on day 1, so generating a 4,500,000 U. S. Payment impacts and cash tax that will be paid in Q1. But of course, it will reduce the taxes payable by It's a pretty when they will start their production. So it's like a prepayment of taxes if we want, if we compare to what would be the treatment in Canada. Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. That's all I had. You're welcome. Thanks, Trevor. And the next Question comes from the line of John Tumazos. Mr. Tumazos, your line is open. Thank you very much. The OTC restructuring is splendid, and you did everything you said you were going to Yes, better than you said you were going to. And you have all the progress outlined in some of your slides Today, which are really very effective in communicating the new resources and projects on the come. When OR first started trading in July 2014, the shares were almost US15. And I guess the good news is that since July August gold price peaks, OR has gone sideways and the other leading royalty streaming companies have gone down 30%, 40%. So maybe ODC is effective in that regard. My sense is that the market just can't digest all the progress you're making. Do you think there's another simplification you could do or a better way To help the market understand the 20 or 30 moving parts that are all moving ahead. Hi, John. Look, thanks for your question. I mean, there's a fair bit to unpack there, so I'll do my best. I mean, To answer a part of your question, we missed out, we feel like, we lost ground obviously in the fall of 2019 From a share price perspective, that's a given. And then we missed out on the run up in the first half of twenty twenty as gold prices ran and gold equities ran. Despite that, in 2020, we still ended up being, I think, the 2nd best performing royalty company in the sector. And whilst I wish that would have been by us Going up, it happened to be by us outperforming, as you say, in the second half by standing still in what was A downdraft over the 2nd part of the year or part of it at least. I think the transaction we announced, I would all bias in I'd agree with you, you did more than most people probably would have expected of us when we started communicating our intent at the start of 2020, Unlocked a considerable amount of value that we can't argue with given how much money Sean has been able to raise on the The development front to justify that value happened into a downdraft, again, that same downdraft, we announced that transaction, I think it was October 2nd or 3rd. We closed at December 2nd or 3rd. Generally, a downward momentum from a gold price perspective and a gold equities perspective. But Nonetheless, the value has been created. We certainly don't think we've gotten the credit for that or what's happening within our royalty portfolio. We're working towards that. Eventually, we will say and do enough to get the benefit of it. And really, at some point, I think that benefit will be undeniable. I The assets are just working beautifully. They're making more money than they ever have for us. And at some point, That growth pipeline is going to kick in, in a bigger way than it already has. So those development assets that people are discounting pretty heavily become pretty tough to discount So that's ongoing. We'll do what we can, John, to fast track it. I think 2020, we did the hardest part of the restructuring. Obviously, we hear a lot about The ownership in Assisco Development, it was 88%. It's now 75% without us having sold a share. But there's a lot of value And as we've said, we'll be smart about how we can tap into that value. But those are the things that we Can control the portfolio that we can't is doing really well. So eventually, we do expect that to prove out. I mean, this is a portfolio That matters in the sector. These are assets that matter. Our flagship asset was the best gold royalty in the business. It just got twice as good. So we do think we will go back and get better value for the 1st term. Do you think it would help if you had a little real time Excel model for your stock holdings Or yours and ODC stock holdings? Or do you think your attorneys would let you take some of the things you put on your slides And have a model where someone could download the XL and put their own gold and silver and diamond prices And or click to include Amulsar and not Amulsar? Yes. Look, to the first part of your question, look, I mean, I think from an OGR and a Cisco royalties perspective, really the 2 biggest chunks of value we have on the equity on the On the investment side, our Cisco Development and Cisco Mining, to a lesser extent, Cisco Metals, that's really it. People can value those on a day like today, that's $1,000,000,000 of value and a pretty paltry remainder for the royalty business. Even if you don't take Market values at a given, any kind of discount you want to apply on that, but the answer is still the same. The royalty portfolio is Getting better than it is. That's the job we've set out for ourselves to undo. Your question is an We're looking to do whatever we can to daylight the value of our portfolio. It's an interesting spot we're in. If you think about The larger companies in our peer group, they generally tend to have 80% or 90% of their value in the producing space, in the producing side of their So they're getting credit for 85%, 90% of their asset value. If you look at the smaller companies, They have a handful of assets, assets and assets, whatever it may be. Everyone models every single one to the last dollar and they get full credit for that as well. Up in between, we have what is a pretty deep, meaningful set of assets, pretty deep portfolio, And 50% of it give or take is in the development category. So we're not getting the benefit of that in cash flow today, but it matters. And if you look To duplicate that portfolio, I don't know what it costs you today. I mean, on these stages, wherever they are, 16, 17 at the back of our deck, Sorry, 'eighteen, 'nineteen. These are the types of things people are paying $50 plus 1,000,000 for in our market And we have in our portfolio and we don't talk nearly enough about them, which is also something that we're looking to rectify. So the good news is the value is there And we'll make sure we do a better job of adhering it to people. Different ideas on how to do that, John, Welcome and we'll definitely give that some thought. Thank you. Good luck. My pleasure. Thank you, John. And your next question comes from the line of Adrian Dey from Adrian Dey Asset Management. Your line is open. Yes, good morning. Listen, you just answered my question about the selling down of the development shares, but you just answered it. Thank you. No problem, Adrian. Good morning to you. Thank you. Thank you. And your next line comes from the line Kuneet Singh from Industrial Alliance, your line is open. Hi, good morning. Just a quick one on asset upside. A question for Eleonore It's been a key royalty for you over the years. I guess Newmont is still working through their assets that they got from Goldcorp, but I just wanted to see if you can provide some color on this. That Plant at Eleonore has capacity over 7,000 tonnes per day. In years prior, I think it was Goldcorp's plan to eventually build for that. Today, Newmont is still operating well under that. Do you think Newmont builds up to that in the years ahead? Or where do you think they'll eventually take the throughput on that asset? Look, I mean, it's hard for me to say. I think rightly so, the first thing they did when they picked up that asset is kind of We set the bar, in my mind, a little low after a couple of years or however many years of expectations being set And then not met. And when you think about a new owner picking up an asset, I mean, wouldn't that be the right thing to do? So That's what we experienced first. We dealt with that last year. So a steady state year now, frankly, a little bit better than steady state is positive. Replenishing of reserves, it's positive. We're not seeing that happening across the board, frankly, based on what I've seen so far in other people's Disclosure, they did that at, I believe it was 12 or maybe it was 12.50 gold for reserves. So still amongst the lowest in the sector and frankly their reserve categories are maybe the most stringent in the sector. So I feel comfortable about the baseline Thereafter, how they work to improve that, time will tell. I seem to recall kind of a circa $10,000,000 Expiration budget for 2021, targeting some of the deeper material, but also looking laterally closer to service. So we look forward to getting some updates there. I know they were positive about some of the regional And there's just more activity in that area overall. So premature and probably unfair for me to comment. But Overall, I'd say we'll take steady state until things improve. It's a marked improvement over the last couple of years. Okay, Sandy. Fair enough. Thanks. My pleasure. Thank you. And the next question comes from the line of Brian from Raymond James. Your line is open. Good morning. Many of my questions have been answered, but just a couple of things I want to follow-up on. And I thank you for breaking out some of the consolidation because we had said it does take some time. But you mentioned investments of $215,000,000 ex And again, obviously, that's metals and mining. But if I turn it up with the market value, there's some other stuff in there. Is that the Also convertible or is there another back to Jackie's question about cleaning up the investments, it looks like there's another 20,000,000 Something in there. Is that right? Or can you comment on that at all? No. Happy to, Brian. I mean, and I was maybe a little Flip it in that remark. I was trying to get to the bulk of that value and the bulk of that value is obviously Cisco Development, the lion's share Cisco Mining and Metals Hi, Matt. But we do still have small investments in Sable Resources and Talisker, for instance, and that would kind of Round out the rest, if you will. So both of those earlier stage still in nature, still we thought a lot of value Unlock in those names, both doing positive things, just not to go off on too much of a tangent, but Sable having entered into a joint venture with South32 where we have a 2% ASR on that ground in Argentina. So look forward to them being more active. So Yes, I was a bit short in terms of the list, but the list is not much, much longer than that. Great. Thanks. And then the second thing, so you're excluding Lennard and I'm just trying to figure out how to I assume that comes into the financials, but And you're putting the cash back into the company right now. Do you ever get that back? Like you obviously have at the end of the day or how does this actually work? So we just think about the 8,000 VO this year, we kind of just It's gone and when you get it working next year, we start to include it again? Or is there a catch up in the future? Or how should we actually think about that, as you said, from a pure cash So based going forward. It's available to OR. Yes. So it's not money that's being evaporated, Brian. It's It's made up being reinvested into the business and with the expectation of it getting repaid. So it's essentially a loan into the business. And We're happy with where we are. I have to say, going through COVID, I did not expect Luxury grids, they rebound as quickly as they have. So that's promising. I guess maybe the whole world has rebounded quicker Than many of us thought. So getting $10 a carat higher than we were prior to COVID, I think, is a good step in the right direction. The fact that with the reinvestment by not just us, but all the streamers of the stream back in, They're not having to draw on the working cap facility. They're making a little bit of money. That's all good news. I think it's fair to say that We still require another step change up before we can start getting paid on our stream and getting back some of those historical investments. So Fred, I don't know if there's any more detail you think is warranted, but that's how to think of it, Brian, it's not being evaporated. We certainly are keeping a running tally of it as our partners and hope that with a bit more joy from a diamond price perspective, that can come back into the black. Right. Sorry, maybe it wasn't the right term. It is a decent size GEO at the end of the day. So I'm Curious when you start getting back to get the cash back out. Yes. Look, it's certainly chunky. And We are absolutely focused on getting value for that. So trust me, It's not a forgotten asset. We think it's not in our value in any way, shape or form right now, which is fair. But in terms of option value assets that can be turned back on, I mean, there's $1,000,000,000 of infrastructure, of good infrastructure that's gone into that diamond Balance sheet and diamond prices just went wrong at the same time, but that diamond mine Should be profitable before any other diamond mine is built anywhere in the world. And frankly, we're not seeing any sound That could be built. So we look forward to we're still not out of the woods from a COVID perspective. We're happy it's back when we started. We're happy we're up on a diamond price perspective so far, but want to keep that as a positive surprise hopefully as opposed to Sticking our necks out too far and then having to justify it. Great. Thank you. That color is very helpful. Maybe just one quick question, maybe for Fred. I just want to confirm I heard this right. When I go through your financials and try and deconsolidate the ODD stuff, there's that income taxes payable of $6,000,000 which I guess is Canadian. That's that $4,300,000 you talked about to true up the San Antonio deal, which you said ODD is paying. That's right. So again, it's not cash you're going to owe? No, you're correct. It's well, it's a cash tax payable by Osisko Development in Q1 2021, not by Osisko Gold. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thanks, Brian. And your next Question comes from the line of Greg Barnes from TD Securities. Hi, David. I just want to follow-up on Brian's line of questioning on Renard. Is it a question of diamond prices there? Or is there more work to be done on the cost structure? What is it that will Get that into a performing asset for you. Look, I think it's obviously always both, Greg. So not It's only reliant on, diamond prices. I think the good news for us is we saw, the team sharpen their pencils, Especially during the extended COVID shutdown, I would call it, to make sure that the cost could be reduced. It's always one of those things as a group of owners, you ask for people to sharpen their pencils and cut as much cost as possible and It's absolutely necessary. The answer is always, we're clean as we can be and then blow the hole, you find more. So I think the groups are doing a great job from that perspective. Think there's continued possibility to optimize that. But I think it's fair to say that the biggest chunk of A gain there could come off the back of diamond prices for sure. And then that's always With any mind in any commodity cycle, the commodity price can be a lot more good for you than the OpEx. Obviously, we want the team to be focused on the OpEx because that's the only thing Good control. But we've already seen a good move. After years of waiting for it, we saw Ardile Finally, fill the towel in. And that's significant because that's not only the 15% of diamond annual supply, it's also in the same Very similar, I guess, quality and size fraction as Renard. So we look forward to continued On that side, I think it's certainly possible and obviously necessary. Just on the Molstar, you mentioned that they have unfettered access back to the site again. Is there any kind of time frame that you can lay out On what could happen there? I mean, maybe I could, but I won't. I think it'd be reckless I think we are I certainly am positive more positive than I thought I'd be a year in. It sounds it seemed like a pretty Desperate situation a year ago, Christmas time, a bit longer than a year ago. The truth is that was Good. It's a very good asset at $1400 gold. It's a company maker at $18,000,000 and it's Arguably 70% or 80% built depending on the minor step back you have to take to get going again. So I think it's an asset that matters. Armenia was in a tough spot before COVID and before a war with Azerbaijan. So I think this is always an asset that really the even the community wanted In large slots, the government certainly wanted it to prove. The unfortunate aspects there, just The pushbacks were really largely artificial in nature or it's a long term analogy, but I think you know what I mean. So With that kind of out of the way, we look forward to some positive developments. But until they happen, I think it's tough for us to bang on the table and talk about it. But I think If you look at the sector as a whole, certainly a ton of examples where if the asset is good enough and this asset is clearly good enough, There are people that decide to take another run at it. And this one frankly being as far advanced as it is, Yes, it's one of the few lines that can hit the cycle pretty quickly. Okay. Great. Thank you. No problem, Greg. Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Jeremy Roy from Canaccord Genuity. Your line is open. Hi, good morning, everyone. You guys have answered most of my questions so far. Thanks. Just one quick one left On G and A, previously, you guys had indicated with the OVV spin out that it would drop for OR with Going forward, can we expect to see the G and A Expenses for ODD split out or will it be consolidated? I know we touched on this earlier Talking about those, but a little more detail would be appreciated. Yes, look, Jeremy, it's a good question. And I think that's a fair way to think about it going forward in terms of that division. I think you'll see a bit more segment information going forward. We didn't try to overdo it this time around because we kind of owned we did own the assets all within OR for The vast majority of the year, 11 plus months out of the year. So we kept it a little bit simpler. But going forward, We'll do our best job of being able to show you exactly what's happening on each side of the business because it's important to obviously each set of shareholders. Great. Thank you very much. No problem. And your final question comes from the line of Dom Bleece from Paradigm Capital. Your line is open. The further on that Consolidation accounting, presumably at some point, when you allow your ownership to be diluted down, You will remove that consolidation. Would you do that when you dilute to under 50 percent? And secondly, if you still are Under consolidation accounting, when ODB is into production, would you have to report both ODD's gold your share of ODD gold production and your attributable royalty production in your results. Yes. Good morning, Don. Look, the answer to your first question is yes. So obviously, at some point, we will not be consolidating. Again, started out In December, our 80% were down 75%. That's just based on dilution. Eventually, when we're below, it's not exactly a bright line 50, but you can think of it as such, I think, reasonably closely. There's other determinants that go into it. So below that level, obviously, We will stop consolidating. I think that's obviously noise that everyone would prefer to not have. And the second part of your question, the answer is yes, whilst we are still consolidating and obviously we will have to deal with that. I think as I said, We took a good crack at it this quarter in terms of separating things for people. We will continue to do that and frankly probably get better at it. But Well, I'll say accounting is important. It's not what drives decisions. Value matters, and we'll do our best to uncomplicate things. But the heading is value and then rock and loose side of that. Hopefully that answers your question, Don. Yes, that's good. Again, I think part of your undervaluation is a little bit of confusion. So Anything you can make to get it more simple, probably helps them on. And that's completely fair, and it's not lost on any of us. Trust me, we're reminded that way. Okay. Thanks, Andy. No problem, Don. Operator, were you serious when you said that was the last question? It was. So this concludes the Q and A session. I would like to turn it over to you, Mr. Sinks, for Okay. Well, thank you for the time and the interest, everybody. I think it was useful to get That output and that back and forth with you. So thanks for your questions and your time, and have a good rest of your day.