Hello everybody. I hope you can hear us. I am happy to welcome Massimiliano Rocchia, our Market Manager in HORIBA France, and he will be with us. Ludivine Fromentoux, the Raman Product Manager. Sorry. Max, can you hear me?
Yes, I can hear you.
No?
And.
Mass?
Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me?
Okay, great.
Perfect. I just want to welcome everybody.
Yes, perfect.
I hope you will enjoy the day and the webinar, and looking forward to get all your questions, to answer to all your questions at the end.
Don't hesitate to ask your question in the pod below. Mass and Ludivine will be happy to answer them at the end of the presentation. The presentation will start now. It's about 25 minutes, you will. Oh, hello, Ludivine. Just on time.
Hello, sorry. Some delay for the connection.
The presentation. You are on time. No problem. Everybody, you will have time to ask your question because the presentation is only 25 minutes, so we will have time after for lots of questions. Let's start now the presentation.
Good morning and good afternoon, everybody. My name is Massimiliano Rocchia, and today I will show you the solution developed by HORIBA to simplify the analysis of packaging and multilayer material with Raman microscopy. This is the outline of my talk. I will start with a brief introduction about the new target on sustainable growth and circular economy strategy coming from the European Parliament. Then I will briefly introduce Raman spectroscopy, and at the end, we will have a complete demo showing the HORIBA solution for the packaging analysis. From the sample preparation with the polymer vise, through data acquisition with the Raman microscope, down to data analysis with a dedicated Layers software. After the demo, we will have time for question and answer. Now, let's start with the first part of my presentation.
In February 2021, after the communication of the European Commission of March 2020, the European Parliament released a resolution on A new Circular Economy Action Plan. This new plan highlight the fact that the circular and so sustainable economy is the key to reduce the environmental footprint of the European production and consumption, to respect the planetary boundaries, and to protect the human health. Furthermore, the European Parliament calls on Member States to consider circular economy objective in all relevant national legislation, and calls on the Commission to focus on the implementation of the legislation related to the circular economy. In the Circular Economy Action Plan, the European Parliament identified seven key value product chain, where to apply a circular strategy and a sustainable approach. As you can see, the packaging is one of these seven. Now let's have a closer look to the packaging product value chain.
In the packaging circular strategy, the European Parliament reiterate the objective to have packaging reusable and recycled, and mentioned to have a new ambition target in the Packaging and Packaging Waste Directive that we will see later. Furthermore, it underlines the essential role of innovation and push to support the collection and sorting of packaging waste according to the existing European Directive, the Directive (EU) 2018/852. Going more in details about the European existing directive within the packaging scope, we need to mention the Directive (EU) 2018/852, where the European Parliament set clear target for 2025 and 2030 on the minimum amount of all packaging waste that should be recycled. These target are 65% and 70% respectively. And the Directive (EU) 2019/904 on the reduction of single-use plastic. About single-use plastic, let's consider as an example what is defined for beverages bottle.
To reduce their impact, by 2030, all the beverages bottle manufactured with polyethylene terephthalate as a main component must contain at least 30% of recycled plastic. Now, we need to mention as a last step, a future directive not yet released, but it's important to mention that the European Commission is working on this new proposal on packaging and packaging waste that will amend for sure also the Directive (EU) 2019/904 on single- use plastic. There are three specific objective at the basis of this proposal from the European Commission: to reduce the generation of packaging waste, to promote a circular economy for packaging in a cost-efficient way, and to promote the uptake of recycled content in the packaging. There is an additional goal in this proposal: that is to have all the packaging fully recyclable, so designed to be recycled by 2030.
It will pose even more severe step for the packaging industry. All of this new directive and this sustainable and circular approach coming from the A new Circular Economy Action Plan of the European Parliament, will transform for sure the main drivers in the packaging industry. Raman spectroscopy and our full software solution can help the research and development and quality control laboratories of the packaging company to address these new challenges. Like the use of recyclable material, and so they need to control their mechanical property, the quality, and for example, also the need to design new material with the same performance of the old one, but that can be easily recyclable or reusable. It's critical to have new tool for this laboratory to address these new challenges.
Before moving to the live demo, let's introduce briefly the Raman technique and what it can bring to the packaging industry. We will start with a very short introduction about how it works and what it is, Raman. Then I will show you how to extrapolate the information from the Raman peaks, and then we will see what Raman can bring for the packaging industry. Let's move to this part.
Raman is a molecular spectroscopy technique and similar to infrared spectroscopy, and it is a scattering or emission technique. A laser strikes the material and some of the scattered lights, the Raman scattering, is collected and brings the information of the material. A typical Raman spectrum is reported here at the bottom. Raman investigates the vibration of covalent bonds, which can be stretching vibration, when you have a change of the bond length, or bending vibration, when you have a change of the bond angle. These vibration probes with Raman spectroscopy generate several peaks, and they can provide different type of information. Let's see which information can be gathered by analyzing the peaks. The peak position allows to identify the material and its chemical structure, because each compound has a unique Raman spectrum, so unique series of peak.
The peak intensity can provide information about the detectability, orientation, and polarizability of the respective chemical bonds, and allows quantification analysis. The peak shift can give information about the deformation stresses and about the temperature and pressure which a material undergoes. Peak width allows to determine the degree of crystallinity, the presence of defect, the amorphicity, just to mention some of the general information that can be extract by a Raman spectrum. By knowing which information can be extracted by a Raman spectrum, let's go a little bit more in detail about which information Raman can bring for the packaging application. Raman, first, can be used to identify the different type of polymer. Indeed, each polymer has a unique Raman spectrum, so it's Raman fingerprint.
Here you can see some example of a Raman spectra of the most common polymer type in the packaging field, like polyethylene terephthalate, linear low-density polyethylene, polypropylene, and so on. Raman can also distinguish and identify the different type of adhesive, even if they are similar in nature. For example, here I reported the three Raman spectra of three different polyurethane adhesive, which differ only for the diisocyanate used to synthesize them. They can be easily discriminate by looking at the spectral range between 1,000 and 1,100. Why is important to know the adhesive? Because it can be an important aspect in case of delamination failure, for example, for multilayer laminate film. Raman can also recognize the different type of inorganic filler, and also the polymorph type of the inorganic filler.
In this example, I reported the titanium dioxide, and as you can see, Raman can easily distinguish the two most common forms of titanium dioxide: anatase and rutile. The one to be used in the packaging field is the rutile one. Furthermore, Raman can determine the degree of crystallinity of the polymer. This is a spectrum of the polyethylene terephthalate, and the peak highlighted here with the arrow can be used for this purpose. The two peaks at 1,096 cm -1 and 1,118 cm -1 can be assigned to the gauche conformation of the terephthalic moiety. They can be used as a measurement of the degree of crystallinity in polyethylene terephthalate.
Thinking back to the European directive and what is stated about the use of recyclable PET in new beverages bottle, we can expect that the recycled PET can have a different degree of crystallinity respect to a virgin one. So having Raman as an easy and fast method to check the degree of crystallinity can represent a good tool to monitor the present, and above all, the amount of the recycled PET Raman finally can also be used to identify the polymer orientation and so the oriented polymer film.
In this example, you see the same polyethylene film unstretched and stretched. When stretched, the polymer chain align along the stretch direction, and this can be detected by a clear change in the Raman spectrum. You can see here in the region of the fingerprint. For packaging, this is important because it will permit to distinguish the oriented film from the other. The last point about determining the thickness in submicron range in complex multilayer structure will be addressed during the live demo. Now let's move to the live demo. Before going to the live demo, I just want to introduce briefly what you will see there. We will show you how to prepare easily the polymer multilayer structure with a polymer vise developed by HORIBA.
Then we will show you how to analyze this polymer multi-structure in cross-section way and how the Layers software can simplify your life in analyzing the data collected. After, we will show a different type of example. A polymer multilayer structure, but analyzed not in cross-section mode, but in confocal mode. Also in this case, you will see how it's possible to exploit the Layers software to fully analyze the data. Now let's start with the demonstration.
Now I'm showing to you the polymer vise and how you can prepare a polymer packaging or food packaging for doing analysis with Raman microscopy. On the table, we have the different parts of the HORIBA solution. We have the screwdrivers, we have the polymer vise, we have the vise holder, and we have the single-use blade. Let's take the packaging. Any packaging will be fine. Let's cut a piece of the packaging. Then let's take the vise, put the piece of the packaging in the middle, and then let's tight the two screws at the corner of the polymer vise. At this point, you take the single-use blade, you cut the food packaging, and then you have the cross-section of the food packaging facing up on the polymer vise. Then you take the polymer holder, the vise holder.
You put the vise in the vise holder, and then with the screwdriver, you tighten the screw here in order to avoid the polymer vise moving during the analysis. After the sample preparation, I can give the polymer vise to Thibault so he can start to do the analysis with the Raman microscopy.
Thank you, Massimiliano. As the vise has been prepared, I just have to put it under the microscope, so it fits directly in the stage in order to do the measurements. Putting the high magnification objective to have the best resolution, and then I just have to move to the software to run the measurements. Once the map acquisition is fully done, we have directly in the maps tab whole spectra associated to the different point of the measurements. To the different coordinates where we did the measurements. Then we just have to go to Layers in order to have automatically the recognition of the different reference spectra, so the different chemicals that are present in our multilayer film. In that case, we can see that we have one, two, three, four, five different chemicals present and with different layers thickness associated to these different chemicals.
Automatically, we will have one color associated to each different compound. The database software, KnowItAll, will do the identification of the different layers in order to identify the different polymers that we have in our multilayer. Here we can see in that case that for the different layers, we have the different thickness associated to the different layers with their identification, their color, and the main spectrum, the average spectrum associated to the different layers. It helps also to control that there is no missing in terms of layers and no misidentification. We have access to each spectrum of the map moving the cursor. What we can do also is to look directly all average spectrum or all layers loadings, so all reference spectra that are used. If I display all spectra on one window, I can show them in order to compare them.
That can be used also then for the reporting. Another thing that we can do, and that is very useful, is to display the video image in order to compare the distribution of the different chemicals with what we have seen on the video image. If I do that here, displaying the video window, I have directly the video image associated to my cross-section. I can see that for each layer that we have seen on the video image, we have the chemical identification and with the different chemical distribution that we have in our multilayer film. Based on that, it help us to see the identification of them and to control that the layers thickness that we have identified correspond well to the sample as it should be.
Another possibility that we have is to remove the external layers, so we can skip the first row or the last rows, just in order to remove extra layers that can be out of the film if we do the analysis out of the cross-section, which is not the case in this one. We have also the possibility for more expert users to have an expert mode. With this expert mode, we have the profiles associated to the distribution of the different chemicals. This give us the possibility to identify if we are missing a layer or if we are adding a layer or a chemicals where it should not be. If this happens, you can always change the number of loadings that you have, changing the automatic loading generation and updating the analysis.
In that case, less than six is good because we are seeing that we have five different chemicals. Let's keep that for experts. Another possibility that we have had for the Layers app is to have some reports. This is very useful in order to report your analysis to your managers. Just clicking on Open Report, automatically the software will generate a report where you will have the distribution of the different layers with the Raman image with the different chemical distribution. You have also the overlay on the video image in order to check that it's well-fitted with what you can see on your video image. You have the table with all characteristics for the different layers, so the thickness, the positions, the ID, the color, the spectra, et cetera.
You can put also in comments in the table, any information that can be useful for you in order to report to your manager regarding the information for your different layers. You can also have all the loading, so all the reference spectra associated to the different chemicals in order to show what are the different spectra associated to this one, and to show where are the differences between the different chemicals in the Raman spectra. For sure, you can add also your own logo in order to report and to know what has been done. As you can see, doing cross-section analysis using the Layers app becomes very easy because you don't have to spend time and you don't need to be an expert to do such analysis. Now everything is done for you and useful for you in order to have all information of interest.
Now that we have seen that it's very easy to do a cross-sectional analysis using the cutting tool, let's do the analysis on a sample that cannot be cut, and that doesn't need to be prepared using this tool. In this case, it's a glass for a smartphone, which we have and that we want to analyze the different layers. I just have to replace the sample under the objective. Under the microscope, make the focus on it or as just soon as to be as close as possible, and then move to the software. Once you recorded all data sets, we can now send it directly to Layers. In Layers, as for the cross-section analysis, we have complete directly all the spectra associated to the different layers in the Z profile.
We can have each single spectrum associated to each single point that has been probed in this confocal profile, and we can see the distribution of the different chemicals that has been detected. In green here in the middle, we can see the layer of PET with silicone of 19 micron thickness, and we have also the two layers of PET in the surrounding and the additive layer on the top of it and the polybutylene layer on the bottom of it. Then we can directly also see all loadings spectra in order to compare the different compounds and to see where are coming the differences. We can then send all the results in the report in order to get all the information and to be able to report all the results associated to this specific multilayer of polymer.
With Layers, we now have a full app in order to get all the information associated to all different layers of a multilayer polymer sample obtained with Raman microscopy.
Thanks, Thibault, for showing the Layers software and what Raman microscopy can do for food packaging analysis. It is clear how the combination of our polymer vise and the Layers software can provide a full solution to the people that want to analyze polymer multilayer and want to understand and characterize polymer multilayer easily. There is an additional thing to say before closing, is that this tool, together with the Layers app, is not only limited to food packaging, but any multilayer material you would like to analyze can be easily addressed with this type of tool and with the Layers software. We are talking about pharma packaging or any other possibility. Okay? Thank you for your attention, and now I am ready to answer all your questions.
Ludivine?
Yeah, I am coming.
Yes.
Our communication is just slow.
Okay. We already have many questions. First question, what is the limit of the layers, in maximum and minimum? I think it is the maximum and minimum in nanometers or micrometers, I do not know.
Okay. I can take this question. Let's put it this way. If it is in terms of thickness, I can see it is very close also to the second question that came. I would say the minimum thickness that you can reach with Raman can be close to, I would say, 500 nanometers reasonably. Of course, it strongly depends by the objective that you are using for doing this type of analysis. The suggestion is, when you want to analyze a layer in the thickness of 1 micron or below, it is better to use 100X objective. When you use an 100X objective, of course, you can get the maximum resolution. 100X objective and 532 nanometer laser. This is providing the best resolution. In terms of number of layers, if this was the question, you do not have too much limit in terms of number of layers.
You can analyze as many layers as you want. The software is pretty flexible and it allows you to analyze as many layers as your packaging is, or as they are multi-structure without any limitation. I guess I address to the first two questions in this way. I just want to mention also an additional point regarding the thickness, that there is some trick that you can use, even to improve a little bit the 500 nanometer resolution. I give some example. In some of the packagings, you can use lacquers in order to provide some superficial treatment. These lacquers, they have thickness in the range between 200 nanometer. Okay? That is not easily detectable by Raman. But one of the trick that you can use, you can flip the packaging, like I am doing with this piece of paper.
You can flip it, and then you can double the size, block on the vise, and then do the analysis. There are some trick that you can exploit in order to even to improve the 500 nanometer in some cases. I am going through the question, Odile, so I will just read the question.
Okay, thank you.
There are an additional. I answered to the second question.
Next question. I think you answered.
You answered to the three first questions.
I would go to the next one.
Next question, yes.
What is the typical configuration of the Raman microscope for doing such analysis, and how much laser we would need for this type of application? Configuration of the Raman microscope is pretty standard configuration, you do not have to have a very specific configuration. The suggestion, of course, is to have enough objective with also higher magnification, because this will allow you to have more flexibility with the layer you want to analyze. Because, as I mentioned, if your layer is very thin, you need to have the 100X objective. But sometimes it is better to have a 10X objective to have an easy, the complete view of your sample and to focus in a more easy way. I would say flexibility in terms of objective is for sure an option.
Regarding the laser, I would say, the minimum configuration for me would be two lasers, so the 532 and 785 nanometer. Because when you are dealing with packaging, you can deal also with dye or ink that can be slightly fluorescent. So having a second laser in the near infrared range can allow also to address the more challenging ink or dye. I would suggest two laser and maybe three, four objective. But apart from this, and of course, an automatic stage, it is pretty standard configuration for a Raman system. I will go to the next one. Is there a database of polymer spectra? Can we add one in the database? Yes. We have a dedicated library for polymers, which contain the most common polymer used in the packaging fields. Of course, you can add as many library as you want.
I mean, for doing the analysis, as you have seen, Layers is first identifying the main components, so identifying the different material in the layers. Then, of course, you are using library in order to identify the component that the Layers software generates. Of course, for identifying the component, you can build your own database, use our own database, and use the combination of the two. In this case, the answer is yes in both, to both the question. I will go to the next one. When you will use confocal mode instead of cross-section mode? This is a great question, and I think it will help me to clarify a little bit when to use these two modes. Let us put it this way.
When you want to have the best lateral resolution, so when you want to reach the limit of the Raman microscope, cross-section mode, it is the way that you need to use. Because when you are working in confocal mode, your laser needs to go through layers of different refractive index, so you can have some modification of the real thickness, and also you can have some limitation on the lateral resolution. So on the lateral or confocal resolution. I would suggest when you want to analyze a very thin layer, it is better to work in cross-section mode. When you are doing defect analysis, that you just need to collect one single spectrum, or when you cannot cut the polymer multilayer structure, then you can go without any issue in confocal mode.
Just to give you an example, in cross-section, as I mentioned, you can reach a resolution of 500 nanometer. In confocal mode, dealing with standard polymer, you can reach a resolution of 1.5 to micron. In some cases, even better if you use, for example, all immersion objective and so on. But you can consider as a general indication what I mentioned you just before. Okay. I will go to the next one. How long I need to analyze my multilayers using Layers? Okay. Of course, it depends by the thickness of the multilayer structure. But we need to distinguish two things. Layers is for data analysis and not for data acquisition. As soon as you are collecting your map, then the data analysis is very fast. It can take few seconds, and you will do the full data analysis without any problem.
Regarding the collection at this point, I would suggest one, two seconds per spectrum will be more than enough in case of the polymer multilayer structure. Of course, when you are dealing with fluorescent sample, you need to increase a little bit more the acquisition time. But usually, it is not a long type of measurement, this one. It is a measurement that can be between 10 to 20 minutes when you have layers of 100 micron in thickness. And when you want to reach a resolution down to 500, 1 nanometer, 1 micron, which means that you need to do a spectrum every micron. I would say between 10 to 20 minutes, you can get the full analysis of your multilayer structure. And then with Layers software, you get also the measurement of the thickness and so on very quickly.
Okay, next point is, can the report be customized to display differently or leave out items? Yes. The report can be customized as you want without any issue. You can add all the type of information that you want. You can add the table, you can add the spectra, you can add the loadings, and you can add the logo, you can add the date. You can really do whatever you want on the report without any issue. And I want to add you an additional point. You can also generate some report template that you can use later on for, let us say, you are a contract lab that is doing several packaging analysis, and you want to have a report for each of your customer with the correct logo, with the correct format for each of your customer.
You can generate a different report template and use different report template for the different type of customer. This is also the flexibility that you have. I will go to the next one. Can the Layers software be added to LabRAM HR Evolution instrument? How about the device and it can also fit on the existing stage of Evolution? I would say yes. In this case, I believe it is one of our customer that is asking this question. That is great.
I think so.
Yes, for sure you can do it without any issue.
Yeah. I would say if you have a specific customized stage, but if you have a LabRAM with a standard stage, no problem, it is fitting. What I mean by specific customized stage is very big stage, for example, used for wafer analysis and so on, like the 300 millimeters. Otherwise, it is perfectly.
Okay, we go to the next one. Can Raman differentiate between different monomer copolymer of polyethylene, such as octene, hexene, butene? Okay. If at the end you will have the same type of polyethylene, you cannot distinguish the precursor. Okay? For example, if you have polyethylene coming from metallocene or polyethylene coming from another source, no, you cannot distinguish, because at the end of the day, the material you will get is still the same, polyethylene. You can distinguish the monomer itself. Okay. You can distinguish copolymer. For example, in case of polypropylene copolymer, you can distinguish it. But of course, you cannot distinguish the source of the polyethylene, okay? Because at the end of the day, you will get the same type of material. So from a chemical perspective, it will be exactly the same. What you can distinguish is the density of the polyethylene. Okay?
If you have a linear low-density, if you have a low density, if you have a medium density, if you have a high density, of course, this is something you can distinguish. The more close you want to get, of course, the more information you need to add to your method. Okay? So, if you want to distinguish high density, low density, and medium density, it is okay. If you want to distinguish low density and super low density, ultra-low density, this is something that require much more. You need to train your method much more, and of course, we need to see if it is possible. Okay? So you can distinguish, but of course, it depends how much you are training your method and which is the limit that you want to reach.
At a certain point, you cannot go too much deep in this indication, but you can do something on this direction. I will go to the next one. When analyzing the multilayer structure of the polymer in the packaging, how can one omit the ink? Omit? I do not know. Avoid the influence of the ink? If the ink is well-distributed, of course, or uniformly distributed, you get a spectrum. This is a mix between the polymer and the ink. But usually, let us say non-natural, the synthetic ink, sometimes if you have spectrum that are overlapping each other and the ink is fully distributed in the polymer, so uniform distributed, you can have an issue to distinguish the polymer. But you can try to play with a different laser to see if there is some resonance effect and maybe playing with some subtraction and so on.
But most of the time, the synthetic dye ink, they have strong carbon-carbon double bond, so benzene ring and these type of things, but they have an absorption in a specific range. So maybe you can use the rest for identifying the polymer. So this is tough to give you a clear answer. It is really a matter of case by case. And of course, I need to understand better the question. So, I guess you have my name, so if you want to go deeper on any of your requests, just send me an email and we will have a chance to discuss more. I will go to the next one. Is it possible also to identify single component of a nanocomposite using the same technique? I give you an example on this. I mentioned to you that you can easily recognize an organic filler, like titanium dioxide. Okay?
Or calcium carbonate or whatever you want to add in your polymer as a filler and to improve the mechanical strength or whatever reason you have. Titanium dioxide usually is added as a white dye, but you can do whatever you want. I would say, when you add the titanium dioxide in the polymer, of course, the two are not similar material, so they cannot be perfectly mixed. If you use a very high magnification, you can clearly see the particle of titanium dioxide inside the polymer. Okay? It is not distributed. Of course, you cannot reach the resolution of nano, but you can clearly see that the titanium dioxide agglomerates in bigger particle, and you can clearly see that there is a structure. Okay?
Which means that any filler or any additive you will add to your polymer, and if this additive is not fully compatible with the polymer, like inorganic filler and the polymer, you will have some distribution of the compound that you can easily identify. I would say if you want to add carbon nanotube, for example, or graphene oxide in the polymer in order to increase the mechanical strength, you will see island of the carbon nanotube, of the graphene oxide, so you can see them. Of course, you cannot reach the nano resolution if this was the question, but of course, you can see agglomerate and you can see that the polymer with high magnification does not look homogeneous. I hope I answered to the question that was asked. Otherwise, as I mentioned, if not, just let me know. Next question.
What are some competing technology to this method or other optical selection tool? Okay. Yes. I would say the standard methodology in the past was infrared microscopy. Why now Raman is picking up for multilayer application? Because now the thickness of the layer is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Okay. Which means that in the past, the packaging material could have been of 200 micron with five layers. So each layer could have been in the range of 10, 20, 30 microns. Now, a packaging material can be 50 micron with layers of thickness of 1 micron. Of course, this cannot be addressed by FTIR. Because FTIR has a limitation. I would say in the best condition, you can reach, let's say 6 or 7 micron in the best condition, really the best condition.
But you cannot go below 1 micron, or you cannot even get closer to 1 micron. Okay? This is why Raman is picking up for this application. Other optical section, too. Yes, of course, there are also visual microscopy that can be used. But of course, visual microscopy is not providing information about the chemistry. You can see the layers, but you cannot identify the chemistry of the layer. We will answer going to the next one. Packaging material also include dyes. Does this affect the Raman measurement? Yes, this is what I mentioned before. It can. If the dye is fluorescent, it can affect a little bit the analysis. Otherwise, you will see a contribution of the dye and the polymer. So you will see a Raman spectrum that is bringing the contribution of two.
I would say it can affect a little bit only if you have a fluorescent dye. Otherwise, it's not a big issue.
Okay, Mass.
I reach the end of the questions.
Yes. Is there any other question? Normally, when I say that, lots of questions are coming. We had already lots of questions, so maybe it's the end. Yes, nothing is coming. Thanks a lot, Mass and Ludivine, for being with us. Thanks also for Thibault, who was not there, but who made the demonstration on the instrument. And thanks all for being with us today. I'd like to tell you that we have another webinar in two days on micro correlative microscopy. If you want to join us, look at our website or LinkedIn and you will have all the information. The last one of the year will be December 13, and it will be part of our series of how to do Raman spectroscopy.
It will be presented by Thibault Brulé, who you see now on the video and also with Céline Hébert, an application scientist. Somebody ask something. Can you type your question, please?
Yeah, I saw it.
Somebody say, "Can I ask something, please?" You can type your question if you want.
He would like to speak, Odile. I don't know if it is feasible.
Okay.
So.
Let me check. Or maybe he can call you after.
You can call me without any issue after all, and I can answer to any questions.
Okay. He is happy with that.
Perfect.
Okay. Thanks a lot for being with us today, and see you in two days or next week for the last webinar of the year. Thanks a lot. Goodbye.
Bye