AMERISAFE, Inc. (AMSF)
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Sep 11, 2026, 4:00 PM EDT - Market closed
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Earnings Call: Q3 2013

Nov 1, 2013

Operator

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the AMERISAFE, Inc. third quarter earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are on a listen only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. If any wish to require operator assistance during the program, please press star and zero on your touchtone telephone. As a reminder, today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to introduce today's conference call, Mr. Mike Rascher. You may begin, sir.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the AMERISAFE third quarter 2013 investor call. If you have not received the earnings release, it is available on our website at www.amerisafe.com. This call is being recorded. A replay of today's call will be available. Details on how to access the replay are in the earnings release. During this call, we will be making forward-looking statements. These statements are based on current expectations and assumptions that are subject to various risks and uncertainties. Actual results could materially differ because of factors discussed in today's earnings release, in the comments made during this call, and in the risk factor section of our Form 10-K, Form 10-Qs, and other reports and filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. We do not undertake any duty to update any forward-looking statement. I will now turn the call over to Allen Bradley, AMERISAFE's Chairman and CEO.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Thank you, Mike. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining AMERISAFE's third quarter 2013 earnings call. I'll make a few remarks and then turn the call over to Janelle Frost, our President and Chief Operating Officer, and Michael Rascher, our Chief Financial Officer, to provide more details on the operational and financial aspects of the past quarter. In the third quarter, and continuing to the present day, the workers' compensation market is in a state of flux. Years of weak pricing and aggressive loss selections have resulted in stressed balance sheets. Books of business are in play as underwriters turn their focus away from premium growth and market share toward underwriting profitability. Signs of that refocusing on underwriting discipline can be demonstrated in several ways.

For example, residual markets managed by the National Council on Compensation Insurance have reported more than a 30% increase in premium as of September 30th, 2013, over the same period in the prior year. Interestingly, the NCCI notes a marked increase in the number of large workers' compensation risks being placed in these assigned risk pools. These large accounts are not the typical assigned risk pool account. Instead, these accounts have been parked in the pool as brokers search for voluntary writers willing to undertake the business. I believe brokers are finding the appetite for these accounts, particularly those with unfavorable loss history, very selective. Exceptionally low investment yields, coupled with multiple years of highly unprofitable calendar year combined ratios will, in my opinion, provide support for pricing discipline for the next two years or so.

Like many others in the industry, I believe carriers will cease reporting favorable prior year loss development and begin reporting adverse loss development. Many industry observers have concluded that workers' compensation is a tricky line to write profitably, an opinion that was recently cited in a Wall Street Journal story. All of these factors together, we believe, should support pricing for the foreseeable future, and we see this as an opportunity for AMERISAFE to profitably expand our business during the time of uncertainty. I'll turn the call over to Janelle Frost to talk about the operational aspects of the company during the quarter.

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

Thank you, Allen, good morning, everyone. We were pleased with the operating results in the third quarter. Our combined ratio was a 92.5%, down six percentage points from the third quarter last year. Our top line grew $8.9 million or 11.5% during the quarter. Policies written in the quarter accounted for $10.3 million of that growth. The renewal component of this increase was driven by premium retention of 93.3%, compared to 85.3% in the third quarter of 2012. Policy retention was 91.1%, compared to 91.3% in the third quarter of 2012. In addition, new business grew 34% in the quarter in terms of premium dollars. Audit premium and related adjustments remained positive this quarter at $0.7 million. However, as expected, this represented a decrease of $2.4 million from last year's third quarter.

Our effective loss cost multiplier, or ELCM, for voluntary premium in the quarter was 1.79, compared to 1.66 in the third quarter of 2012. We continue to report our highest ELCM since we began publishing this measurement for those states that use loss cost as a pricing mechanism. For AMERISAFE, that excludes Florida, Texas, and Wisconsin, although Texas recently began using loss cost. Relative to losses, our current accident year loss in LAE ratio remained at 73.2% this quarter. We continue to see favorable frequency trends, both on a relative and absolute basis. Our claims reported in the calendar year were down 5.4%, from 4,468 to 4,228 claims. The quarter was also positively impacted by favorable development from prior accident years. Encouraging trends in case development led to $2.7 million of favorable loss development in the quarter, compared to $1.6 million in favorable development in the third quarter of 2012.

This quarter's favorable development was primarily attributable to accident years 2008 and 2009. Finally, our expense ratio also decreased to 22.6% in the quarter, compared to 22.8% in last year's third quarter. Mike will provide the details on the expenses, I believe it is important to reiterate our commitment to expense management, as evidenced in our lower-than-industry-average expense ratio. That concludes my prepared remarks. I now turn the discussion to Mike.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Thanks, Janelle. For the third quarter of 2013, AMERISAFE reported net income of $9.7 million, or $0.52 per share, compared to $7.1 million or $0.38 per share in the third quarter of 2012. On an operating basis, operating net income was $10.1 million or $0.54 per share in the third quarter of 2013, compared to $6.5 million or $0.35 per share in the third quarter of 2012, an increase of 56.2% year-over-year. As Janelle mentioned, gross premiums written rose 11.5% to $86.1 million from the year-ago quarter. Net premiums earned rose 12.7% from September 30, 2012 to $81.6 million, benefiting from the growth in net premium written achieved in prior quarters. Meanwhile, net investment income totaled $6.9 million in the third quarter of 2013, roughly 2.2% above the third quarter of 2012.

The tax-equivalent yield on our investment portfolio was 3.9%, compared to 4.5% in the third quarter of 2012. Average invested assets were $961.2 million in the quarter ended September 30, 2013, compared to an average of $880.4 million for the same period in 2012, an increase of 9.2%. In the quarter, we experienced a realized loss on our investment portfolio of $654,000, or $0.02 per share net of tax, compared to a $640,000 gain in the third quarter of 2012. In total, revenue for the third quarter of 2013 was $88 million, up 9.5% from the year-ago period, driven by the growth in premium earned. As Janelle mentioned, our current accident year loss ratio for the quarter remained 73.2%, compared to 76.5% a year ago. Our incurred loss and loss adjustment expenses totaled $57 million for the quarter, which included $2.7 million of favorable prior year development.

This compares to loss and loss adjustment expenses of $53.8 million in last year's third quarter, which included $1.6 million of favorable prior year development. In total, our net calendar year loss ratio for the third quarter of 2013 was 69.9%, compared to 74.4% for the third quarter of 2012. Turning to operating expenses. The expense ratio declined to 22.6% from 22.8% the same quarter a year ago, driven by a higher growth rate in premium earned. Total underwriting and other expenses increased 12% to $18.5 million. The 2013 third quarter operating expense components include $5.7 million of salaries and benefits, $6.2 million of commissions, and $6.6 million of underwriting and other costs. In sum, our combined ratio was 92.5% for the third quarter of 2013 versus 98.5% for the same period in 2012.

With the improvement in the combined ratio, our underwriting results were a higher mix of the total pre-tax income. Consequently, we experienced an increase in our tax rate to 22.1%, up from the 20.9% a year ago. For the nine months, our tax rate was 23.4%, compared to 17.7% for the nine months ended in 2012, again, due to underwriting results being a higher mix of total pre-tax income. Turning to the balance sheet. During the third quarter, we executed a reinsurance commutation on our 4 xs 1 layer for the underwriting periods 2008 through 2010. There was no gain or loss on the commutation, simply a balance sheet transaction. As a result, the commutation reduced our reinsurance recoverable by $28.4 million for the quarter. Shareholders' equity grew to $400.7 million, or $21.67 per share at September 30, 2013, growing both sequentially and year-over-year.

Operating return on average equity for the third quarter of 2013 climbed to 10.2%, compared to 7.1% for the third quarter of 2012. On the capital management front, we paid our third consecutive quarterly dividend of $0.08 per share on September 27, 2013. The board of directors, on October 28, declared an $0.08 per share dividend to be paid on December 27, 2013 to shareholders of record as of December 13. Also, on October 28, the board voted to extend our share repurchase authorization to December 31, 2014, and to increase the share authorization to $25 million from $24.4 million. Finally, a few other numbers that may hold relevance to your models. Cash flow from operations remains strong at $99.8 million, up from $59.1 million in the nine months ended September 30, 2012. The increase primarily reflects the impact of the reinsurance commutation.

We continue to maintain excellent liquidity at the holding company level with approximately $43.8 million of cash and cash equivalents. The $43.8 million includes the impact of a $15 million dividend to the holding company from AIIC on September 16. With the dividend, statutory surplus dropped modestly to $338.8 million from the $343.3 million in the second quarter. That concludes my prepared remarks on the financials. I will now turn the discussion back to Allen.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Thanks, Michael. With those comments, let's open the call for questions.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question or a comment at this time, please press the star then the one key on your touchtone telephone. If your question has been answered or you wish to remove yourself from the queue, please press the pound key. Our first question comes from Matthew Carletti with JMP Securities.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Thanks. Good morning.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Good morning.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Just a few questions. First is on top line. I know we've talked in the past, I think a bit on the last call of going through a process of kind of looking at your book and for lack of a better analogy, kind of buckets of, say, green light, yellow light, red light. Where red light needs the rate, keep pushing it. Green light, you know there's a ton of margin in it, and now that you've started to get a little bit of elasticity and demand because pricing's so high, maybe you can open the fire hose there a little bit. Can you walk me through how that's going? Should we expect to see growth accelerate at some point?

Am I thinking about it right in that if that growth is coming from that green light bucket, that's the better price bucket, and potentially it's better margins than the average of the overall existing book?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Okay, Matt, this is Allen. The company, of course, prioritizes growth in those areas where you're making more money and less growth where you're losing money. That's pretty basic. Of course, what we have seen as we have commented on prior calls, we are pushing first for margin expansion and then worried about growth. In the last couple of years, we've been able to grow our business at the same time that we've been raising the pricing. We're probably going to get to a point where the pricing doesn't rise as much, but we would expect the volume may increase some. Our focus continues to be on those areas where we are growing our business in areas we've made more money that we have better results. We will continue to discourage that business which has been less profitable. We don't give forward-looking guidance.

I'm not going to tell you that growth is going to accelerate dramatically. I think you can tell from our comments, we think that this is an opportunity to expand profitably, and profitably being the key part of that.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

All right, great. That's helpful. Then kind of a tie through to that, can you talk a little bit about how you balance that with the capital? Because you've talked in the past about kind of premium surplus leverage ratios that you feel comfortable operating at. We're still quite a bit a ways from that, and you're making good money, so the capital's growing. Do you think about special dividends, things like that? Maybe just talk us through kind of the thought process at where the stock is today.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Hi, good morning. It's Michael Rascher calling.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Hey, Mike.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Again, I think as we suggested last quarter, while everything's on the table, we're pretty much going to take a prudent approach on this until we really have some more foresight into what the true opportunities are out there ahead of us over the next 12-18 months.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Okay. Then one last numbers question. I couldn't find it in the filings. I know it's there, I just couldn't find it. The re-domestication of the insurance subsidiary. There is an expense savings to that, right? Have you estimated it, and is that primarily a 2014 event?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Primarily a 2014 event, and as when we announced that, we pointed out that in 2012, we paid $3.8 million of retaliatory taxes. If that were 2014, that bill on that same amount of money would be zero.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Okay. Very helpful. Thank you.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

There's going to be some growth in that, Matt, and as you expand premium, if you expand it greatly in those states that have a retaliatory tax, the impact will go up disproportionately. I don't have that chart in front of me to tell you where we're growing, but it is primarily a 2014 account-impact. There might be some in 2013, but we're not sure when that event will occur.

Matthew Carletti
Analyst, JMP Securities

Okay, great. Thanks very much for the answers and congrats on a nice quarter.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Thanks, Matt.

Operator

Our next question comes from Mark Hughes with SunTrust.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

Thank you. Good morning.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Good morning, Mark.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

Morning.

Allen, you had suggested you thought there would be pricing discipline for the next two years. I was intrigued by the specificity of the two years. As you think about it, how this cycle matches up with prior cycles, what is giving you confidence that the pricing will hold in there?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Well, I think there's a time period and one of the things I think is interesting about that, Mark, is that we all tend to watch this metric sequentially in the quarters. As you know, the policies are 12 months in length. You really shouldn't look at pricing in the preceding quarter, you should look to see what that pricing was in the preceding year, the same quarter. As you look back at that, you will see over the last 36 months that according to the CIAB studies, that premiums have increased about 20% as reported by those folks surveyed when you accumulate the pricing. If you also look at their history, and they have a long history of studying this, once the pricing goes up, the increases may continue on for a while, but at a lower rate.

It doesn't necessarily go back. You'll read the headlines, I'm sure, in the next few weeks that say, the CIAB study, I think came out on Monday, and it showed workers' comp going up 5.8%. Okay. Well, that's less than the, I think it was 8.3% in the second quarter of 2013. Everybody will say that was a decrease. It is not. That 5.8% is an increase over the 8.1% increase last year, which was over the 4.1% increase in the previous year. I think we're still going. If you look at the progression of pricing in those historical studies by the CIAB, I believe we're going to continue to have the support for increased pricing, or it may plateau, or it may even trend down, but I think it's going to remain at better levels.

Another big driver in that, as you well know, is low investment yields. I don't see that changing rapidly for the industry, and that's a big driver now, causing companies, I think, to focus on profitability. When they focus on profitability, they'll look at the pricing pretty rigidly.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

Thank you for that. How about the larger claims? You had a flurry of those in the second quarter. Can you talk about what you saw in Q3, and is there any trend through the quarter or through October in some of those larger claims?

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

Sure. This is Janelle. I think at the end of the second quarter, we had reported that we had six claims that were over $1 million. At the end of the third quarter, we were up to nine. The claims that we did have in the third quarter were over $1 million, but not at the two and plus mark that we reported in the second quarter. They were smaller million-dollar claims, if that makes sense.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

Right. Is there another sort of layer underneath that of more sizable claims? I'm trying to think. It sounds like frequency is very much under control. Certainly, pricing is going up. Your current accident year loss number, you've kept the same here through three quarters. What's keeping that from going down?

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

Well, severity is still a concern for us. Like I said, we have the claims that are over $1 million that we reported second quarter and third quarter. We like the frequency trends, especially when we have more earned premium coming in the door. As you know, we like to take a prudent approach to our reserve. Third quarter is the quarter that we have the most workers out there working. Our reported numbers tend to tick up in the third quarter. If you remember, we mentioned this quite often when we get closer to the end of the year. By the end of the fourth quarter, we really do know pretty much the universe of claims that we have for any given accident year.

That's our best shot at knowing how we think that accident year is going to develop as far as the number of claims that we have. We're just being cautious about that until we know how the fourth quarter turns out.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Mark, let me add this comment on that. With respect to our pricing, we know the pricing is going up. We still have that memory of 2010, which developed adversely on us. When you look at the $2.7 million of favorable development, none of that came out of any years including 2010. 2010, 2011, 2012, we've left alone. 2013 is the year we know the least about as we sit here today. We're just trying to make sure that our decisions are appropriate and that the best estimates we have now, not relying just on pricing to make that selection, but really looking at the losses and seeing some of those development trends. We see some good trends there. Quite frankly, we want to be very cautious about that, and the fourth quarter's a much better time to take a look.

I'm not predicting there'll be a favorable development there on the 2013 accident year, but I do think that's a better time to look at it than in the third quarter.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Mark, I would just add that, this is Mike, if you think about the nature of our business and the potential for the high severity claims to come through, we just don't know until we know. To Janelle's point, the fourth quarter is certainly a better period, the end of the fourth quarter, where we actually know what the claim frequency looked like. Those claims that are coming in the door, we have a better picture of it at that point in time.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

A final question, Allen, if you touched on this, I'm sorry I missed it, but the flow of new applications, how is that looking? Any commentary about any of the other major players, how you perceive their behavior in the market?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

The flow of applications for new business in the quarter was up about 6.8%, 6.9%. It already been at a high level last year, and this year it's at a high level. We have been quoting quite a few more in the late third quarter as the efforts of the sales and marketing department to focus submissions that come in to be in those profitable areas that I would mention to Matt. We're seeing some of that. With respect to change in the marketplace, my comments about the marketplace being in somewhat of a little disarray right now, we are seeing some business submitted to us from some other carriers. Quite frankly, some a bit surprising as those are coming from construction, particularly heavy construction, and from some trucking accounts recently. Oil and gas is another area that we're seeing submissions, not surprisingly.

We're also seeing some of the economic factors indicate that the construction in the oil and gas industries are actually reporting on a monthly basis higher payrolls than what they had anticipated at the inception of the policies. We're seeing some improvement in the audit premium with respect to those accounts.

Mark Hughes
Analyst, SunTrust

Thank you.

Operator

Again, ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question or a comment at this time, please press the star then the one key on your touch tone telephone. Our next question comes from Randy Binner with FBR Capital Markets.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Hey, good morning. Thank you.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Morning, Randy.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Hey, Randy.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Hi. Let me just ask a few follow-ups. I guess on the last comment there, Allen, I would take it then that the oil and gas and construction trucking, is that going to be in like energy states more that you're seeing that? Like Louisiana, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, or is it more broadly distributed across your geographies?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

The construction is not related to the energy states. The oil and gas, of course, is. In the Gulf, oil and gas can also mean maritime.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Yep.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

It can mean manufacturing as you get in the fabrication business. You can see some of that stuff. It's not just the oil and gas states. Really, my comments were about on the trucking side, what we've seen that has come to us as sort of midterm from some other carriers, as brokers seek to place that business. That's where the trucking's come from. As a whole, trucking's been pretty well flat as a whole, but in the recent weeks and months, we've seen an uptick in the trucking moving. Business, Randy, that you'd understand, is rating sensitive. It needs to move, that sort of stuff.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

All right. That's helpful there. Then just a quick cleanup question on all the discussion around pricing. Did I miss if you actually said what your overall price number was for the quarter?

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

The quarter was 179 for third quarter 2013, 166 for third quarter 2012.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Yeah, that's the ELCM, but then on kind of the percentage basis, or do you not quote that?

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

We do not.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Yeah. Okay. We could take it from the ELCM that you would be kind of above industry run rate on that. Is that fair?

Janelle Frost
President and COO, AMERISAFE

It was here.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

I would say that might be a reasonable assumption, yes.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

All right, good.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

One of the problems you know, Randy, that I have with that net rate change report, it all depends where you start.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

I know. That's just what people want.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

If your pricing was low, you report a higher net rate change even though when you get to the absolute number, you may not be as high as the other party. We choose to report it on an effective LCM basis as a better metric of where our pricing is.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Understood. To just follow up on Matt's question about capital deployment, special dividends, and everything being on the table. I guess, your commentary around, I think you said that books are in play. To me, that means not just picking up more business in the market or maybe some of these items that are parked in the residual markets. Can we think about the potential for renewal rights books being available in workers' comp? Your leverage obviously is low. Operating leverage is one point X. You have no debt. You could add quite a bit of premium to this platform, and I think you have the technology to scale it. Is there any color you can give us on if you could see a bigger opportunity to add business rather than just onesie-twosies?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Well, yes. The books that are in play that have been sent to us largely are requesting, quite frankly, rollovers to take an entire book and agree to write the entire book. Randy, we don't do that.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Right.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

There is certainly the possibility of renewal rights transactions as those, as the balance sheets are stretched and stressed, and folks have to get rid of certain books of business. We're going to maintain our pricing discipline. We're going to maintain our risk selection. We're still going to look at them before we write them. We're not going to agree to roll an entire book. It's just not our approach to the business. Yes, are we interested in renewal rights? Certainly.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Maybe this is a tough one to answer, you say the market's getting more disciplined, is it still undisciplined enough that other people will just go ahead and roll those books? Is there enough fear in workers' comp now that nobody's touching those?

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

What we're seeing is that those are blowing apart. In other words, the programs don't find a home, that's the reason for the parked accounts in the residual markets, that underwriters are not rolling those in and just taking them, that the pricing is moving up in the process.

Michael Grasher
CFO, AMERISAFE

Randy, I would just add that our experience has been that there's a lot of sticker shock for these insureds once they see what the real world is calling into action here in terms of the pricing. From that standpoint, I think our experience would tell us that while renewal right opportunity is out there, one may not receive the benefit of that renewal right inasmuch as just walking away and having an opportunity to see that business later on down the road.

Randy Binner
Analyst, FBR Capital Markets

Right. Understood. Okay. That's great. Thanks.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Thanks, Randy.

Operator

I'm not showing any further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the conference back over to our host for closing remarks.

Allen Bradley
Chairman and CEO, AMERISAFE

Thanks, Kevin. I want to thank you for your participation today. Before closing, I want to tell you a story that I believe is somewhat relevant. In late 2003, after working for this company for more than nine years, I was given the opportunity to serve as the CEO. At that time, the market had emerged from an extended soft market period, where pricing was largely driven by favorably priced low-level reinsurance products. The long-term results of this soft market were not favorable. Even as prices recovered and demand was healthy in the economy, I found that AMERISAFE was without access to available capital and was handicapped in taking advantage of the turn in the market. At that time, I sought additional capital for the company.

I remember a conversation with a potential investor, and I remember telling him, and I quote, "These are the good old days," trying to encourage him to allow us some capital in our operating entities. I guess my arguments weren't very persuasive because my efforts to raise that capital were unsuccessful, and therefore, our ability to expand our operational leverage was limited. Many things have happened to this company since 2003. The biggest change is that we're no longer capitally constrained, as we've been discussing here just a few minutes ago. This current market is not like the 2003 market, but it is the same time in the cycle when opportunity exists to expand business with profitable margins. We're not guaranteed any term for this opportunity, and it's incumbent upon us to take advantage of the opportunity to profitably expand our business.

In other words, I would tell you again, these are the good old days. Thanks for joining us.

Operator

Well, ladies and gentlemen, this does conclude today's presentation. You may now disconnect, and have a wonderful day.