Good morning, everyone. I'm Sebastiano Petti. I cover the cable, satellite, and telecom space here at J.P. Morgan. I want to introduce Jennifer Witz, CEO of SiriusXM. Jennifer, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me, Sebastiano.
So, Jennifer, as you think about the numerous changes going on in the business, you have namely investments in advertising and MarTech, you have the revamped app, 360L, and growth drivers like podcasting. Help us think about, anything I missed, but help us think about how you're positioning the company for growth, over the long term?
Sure. So it all starts with our robust and differentiated position in audio overall, which is really based on our leading content portfolio and our really diverse and unique set of distribution channels. And, you know, we're leveraging these strengths to focus on three key priorities, and you've heard us talk about these before. But the first one is to put us on a path to future subscriber growth by enhancing every part of the consumer experience. The second is capitalizing on opportunities in our ad business, and the third is really driving more efficiencies across the business to improve upon our already strong financial position. So if I could just dig into each one of these a little bit more.
On the first, in terms of enhancing subscription value, we are confident that the investments that we're making, whether it's in our exclusive content, in our new brand platform, or the tech capabilities we're bringing to our platforms, are going to bring new audiences into our products and help them discover, you know, their next favorite artist, channel, podcast, or show. And then beyond that, with the launch of our new streaming platform and app, we have incredibly enhanced capabilities across personalization, discovery, and control. So we're solving for the key pain points with these new audiences across our products, and all this innovation that we launched on the streaming platform will come into our 360L implementations over time as well.
We launched streaming with a new price point of $9.99, which is designed to appeal to a younger set of audiences, more diverse and digitally native, and that's starting to resonate with these audiences. And we're seeing progress in the pricing and packaging that we're testing for our in-car business as well. And then all of the work we're doing kind of behind the scenes to improve capabilities in marketing, which hopefully we'll talk more about, really is designed to improve how customers access content in the app because of what we're showing them through our marketing journey.
So these customized journeys will start to roll out in streaming now that we have much more data inside the Salesforce tools, but all that learning is going to help us design better marketing journeys on the in-car side of the business in the second part of the year as well. So it's across every piece, whether it's content, it's the product capabilities, it's pricing and packaging, that we're enhancing the subscription experience that will put us on a path to future growth. And then on the advertising side of the business, we're leaning into the core strengths we have, whether it's the sales force, where we've been in the ad business for over 15 years, and we have an incredibly strong sales force that knows how to capitalize on opportunities there.
We have leading-edge tech and real innovations that we're bringing to allow advertisers, whether they're big or small, to access our scaled audiences. And then we have an incredible set of audio talent. And of course, you know, we've announced that we're bringing SmartLess to the content portfolio, and I'm really proud of the investments we've made on the podcasting side because they enhance our ability to bring advertisers into our streaming and podcast network overall. So we're really well-positioned on the ad side of the business. And then just in terms of the efficiencies we're bringing to the organization, you know, that crosses everything from, you know, rationalizing our real estate portfolio and things like that, but, you know, also bringing our marketing teams together to have a better go-to-market strategy and be agnostic about our distribution channels.
We're finding efficiencies there, and then we're investing in AI, not only to enhance productivity of our employees, but to deliver a better customer experience as well, to our subscribers as they call centers or go through our chat function. So these three priorities, I'm confident, will allow us, to return to growth overall and continue to deliver really strong financial performance.
All right, great. A lot to cover there, we'll definitely come back to. But as you've had more time in the market with some of these platform changes, how has your expectation for the timeline it takes to return to growth changed? You know, on the 1Q call, you didn't acknowledge that it's taken maybe a little bit longer to see some of the improvements post-platform relaunch. Maybe you can help us think about what caused some of those delays as well.
Yeah. Well, first, I'd say we feel really good about our guidance for the year across our financial metrics. But yes, after we launched the streaming app in December of 2023, we did see some disruption across our subscriber base, and, you know, we were quick to make improvements in several releases that we that we put into market over the course of the first quarter and really iterated fast. I'm really pleased with the capabilities that we have in order to do that. But it did set us back probably about a quarter in terms of rolling out our MarTech stack. So we're now on track there. We've got real listener, personal, one-to-one listener data coming into the Salesforce tools to really customize the marketing journeys there.
It's incredibly fundamental, and I can't emphasize this enough, that we better leverage that data to improve early and trial engagement for streamers, because that is a very strong leading indicator of ultimate streaming retention. The same thing goes for the in-car side of the business. Early indicators of strong listening and trial in-car lead to better conversion rates, and both streaming retention and in-car conversion are keys to longer-term subscriber growth.
Okay, so while still early, new app trial was only launched in December, and you mentioned you were seeing positive leading indicators. I mean, any other kind of early lessons? And, you know, I mean, how confident are you that, you know, this new streaming platform can penetrate this maybe new, younger TAM? That's something we get questioned on as well.
Yeah, so we have some good leading indicators. It's still early, and we have three-month trial structure, so it's gonna take a while to work through. But so far, we're seeing more days listening among active listeners, which speaks to that, you know, early engagement. We're seeing a broader set of content being accessed by streaming listeners, and yeah, that points to, in particular, improvements in podcast engagement and our sports offering, both where we've made investments on the content side. So we're really pleased to see that performance. And we're also bringing really capitalizing on these content moments that we have, whether it's, you know, the Taylor Swift pop-up channel or it's, you know, Ashley Flowers' new true crime channel, and leveraging that in our performance media to drive trials.
So we are seeing interest in the content that we have, and then we can onboard customers into our streaming experience much more quickly than we could, say, in the in-car business, where it's harder to, you know, build that end-to-end onboarding process. So everything we're learning here, we feel really good about rolling that through to the in-car business and continuing to see opportunities to, you know, really build out and improve conversion rates there.
Okay, so SiriusXM does not typically give quarterly guidance, but you do expect better year-over-year sub performance in the back half of the year, driven by product enhancements and higher conversion rates. Given the slower ramp in the first half, what gives you confidence that 2024 subs can get better than in 2023? And then maybe help us think about some of the MarTech and other platform improvements that will probably come online.
Yeah, so the first quarter was down year-over-year in terms of net adds, mostly because of vehicle-related churn. And I would expect the third-party analysts are converging around sort of SAR in the high 15 million range, and so that should stabilize as we go over the course of the year. And so we should see the higher conversion opportunities that result start to roll through and result in higher conversions in the second half of the year, and not as much of that upfront vehicle-related churn rolling through. But, you know, speaking of the MarTech enhancements, it goes back to what I was talking about earlier, where if we're, you know, rolling out these personalized journeys and we're starting to see improved engagement early in trial and streaming, that will roll through to improved streaming net adds as those trials mature.
And we expect to roll or ramp up some of these, marketing improvements on the in-car side of the business, starting in the summer. And again, it's gonna start with low volumes, but work its way through the trial structures, and, you know, by the end of the year, I think we should have some good indication as to how that's rolling through conversions, and that plays into our guidance as well. So we still feel confident that, we will deliver better overall net adds this year versus last year, and, we'll start to see that materialize in the numbers in the second half.
Should we expect second quarter net adds to come in better year-over-year?
I'm not gonna comment on the second quarter specifically.
Okay. I figured I'd ask-
Thank you for the question.
F or a second time. Yeah. No problem. So you did reduce prices for the digital-only tier last year in conjunction with the relaunch. You also alluded to some more testing or trialing of some of these lower-priced packages to try to capture some of that demand there at lower price points, but with less content. Is that... You know, help us think about maybe some of the ways that you are trying to think about limiting cannibalization of the high monetization tiers as you introduce some of these other kind of lower-priced offerings?
Yeah, so we launched the streaming product at $9.99, and that compares to our core in-car product at about $19 today. And there's real differentiation there because, of course, in-car, you get streaming access as well, so it's really like having two subscriptions. But we... And we've talked a lot about the testing we're doing on the in-car business, for pricing and packaging, and we're trying to solve for three things, which means we need to be very thoughtful about how we go through this. We wanna open up more demand because we know that price has been a challenge in bringing new audiences into our products, whether that's in-car or in streaming. And we wanna make sure that we're preserving our full price base, where we've been able to, over time, increase, prices and also maintain really low churn.
And we also wanna make sure that we have opportunities to reduce our reliance on promotional discounted plans, which, you know, we use in acquisition and, and retention. So we're trying to solve for multiple things, and we are seeing some progress in the testing we're doing on the in-car side of the business. We're leveraging different things to create that packaging differentiation. So whether it's access, streaming versus in-car, or content availability, or even over time, we would expect to use more availability of ads to create that differentiation as well. But, but I do think we'll have opportunities to both capture more demand, but also maintain that full price base at those higher price points and, and implement rate increases over time.
So while we might be seeing some dilution this year from some of the strategic efforts, over time, you still expect that you have the ability between your different, you know, pricing and packaging to return ARPU back to growth?
It's really about driving revenue growth, and, you know, I believe that we have opportunities to increase rates. We've certainly been able to do it in the past, and, you know, we plan to do that sort of on the every other year cycle that we've done historically. But I also don't wanna compromise on being able to capture more demand at lower price points. So it really is about leaning into that differentiation and making sure that, you know, we are offering attractive products and price points to younger audiences.
And so thinking about 360L, I, I think you noted there's 3 million self-pay customers today with 360L, and 12 million total 360L cars on the road. Any update on how you're thinking about the, you know, the learnings from, you know, these cars or the data that you're getting back and how that's perhaps enhancing, you know, some of your decision making? And net-net, I mean, is, is the promise of 360L beginning to bear fruit?
It's really impressive to see the results on our 360L trials and our self-pay subscribers. So we see better conversion rates, we see better self-pay retention, so lower churn rates, and we see higher ARPU among our 360L customers. So, and it makes sense. It's the most advanced platform we have. It has a lot more personalization and control and discovery features built into that platform, so just like what we're seeing on the streaming side of the business. So we're very eager to continue the 360L rollouts, we are at about 35%-40% of our trial, our new car trial starts this year with 360L, and we should be able to pass the 50% milestone next year, of course, on the new car side.
You know, we continue to look for opportunities to drive feature parity across the implementations, which, you know, AAOS will certainly help with that. Then it's really about the awareness, not just that you have 360L, but that you have these enhanced features. We've done a fair amount of testing, A/B testing in For You, which is, you know, buried, unfortunately, in some implementations. But where customers are getting into For You and seeing these recommendations, they're responding to the content we're showing them in the product. I'm feeling very good about where we are with 360L and, yeah, would hope that we can roll it out even faster.
And so as you're thinking about, I think you alluded to this ad-supported opportunity that may be coming down the road here. I mean, is this a 5, 10-year kind of initiative? I mean, until kind of 360L gets to, you know, greater scale, you know, from 12 million today.
Yeah, it's right now, we're testing just really low volumes, but a persistent free tier, and it's just with a couple of OEMs, and it has a reduced channel set, and there's ads across music and talk channels. And what right now, the primary focus is, 'cause it'll be broadcast ads to start, but primary focus is how do we use it for upsell into subscription? And you should expect anything that we do on the in-car side of the business, we would look to replicate on the streaming side as well. So clearly, video streamers have capitalized on this, creating different products and packages based on using ads. So we could either use it as a persistently free tier that's totally ad-supported, or we could look at a lower-cost subscription with ads to create that package differentiation.
But over time, in the car, we'll be able to bring IP-targeted ads there. So to your point, it really, in terms of monetizing through ads, and it's a great complement to the rest of, the ad network we have across streaming and podcasting, to have IP-targeted ads in 360L, we need to build raw volume to really drive revenue there. So I suspect in the early days, it's mostly gonna be about keeping that free tier on, so that we can upsell into subscriptions over time.
Help us remind us of the latest comments or latest announcements you guys have made about thinking about the, you know, volume of 360L vehicles. So from 12 million today, you know, how are you—what is the maybe 3- to 5-year roadmap in terms of how you're thinking about the size of that fleet?
It takes a long time to roll through the fleet, obviously. And so we're very focused on trial starts because that's where we can really make an impact in terms of conversion. And, you know, again, on the new car side, we'll be at about 40% for the year this year, going over 50% next year. That starts to show up in used, and, you know, those are the opportunities that we have, whether it's customizing the experience in the car with things like ignition-on recommendations, which no one else does, really effectively in the car. So as soon as you get in the car, and we have this with low volumes today, we'll serve up a set of recommendations, either based on what we think you'll like on other data, if it's cold start, or based on your listening.
And so that gets people into this new content, 'cause one of our single biggest pain points is discovery, right? People don't want to flip through the channels anymore necessarily. So continuing to roll out features like that enhances our ability to convert subscribers, and that is what's so core to future growth, is reversing this trajectory on conversion rates. So these kinds of investments in recommendations and personalization can also bring that through to the marketing investments that we're making and customize those journeys. So that's why the trials are such a big area of focus for us, because that's where we can really impact future growth.
In terms of 360L, you said 40%-50% of trials. And is what's the margin higher? Is that probably the level over the next several years, or when does it get to-
We should get in the next sort of three years, I would say, we should get up to probably about 75% of our trial starts with 360L.
Okay. And so obviously, we're spending a lot of time on conversion, and then is some of these in-car features that are coming down the road should help with the conversion rates, but, I mean, is it also about getting some of these, the new tier in front of younger demos? Is that a portion of it as well? Like, how are you thinking about that?
So it really all comes back to our new go-to-market strategy, which is about being agnostic as to where customers listen. And, you know, in some ways, it may just be that we have two different audiences, generally speaking, where a younger set of audiences who are just digitally native are happy to use streaming in or out of the car. And then, our core segments and audiences and our subscriber base will continue to leverage the enhanced and by the way, much more safe experience of the integrated 360L experience that we're rolling out. And so I think we'll be able to address demand on both those audiences, whether they're listening in the car or out.
You know, I think it's really fundamental in terms of how we're looking at the go-to-market to really just, you know, from the top of the funnel, where we're investing in, you know, our new brand platform, it's about developing resonance with the content we have. So it's all the campaign that we're rolling out is closer. We bring you closer to the content you love. And then, using content marketing at a more segmented level in performance media or even, you know, targeted personally to drive customers into the content and our products based on things that really make sense for them. And then, of course, you know, completing that personalization in the product by surrounding people with content that they love once they're there.
This whole sort of full funnel strategy in marketing assumes that when we're onboarding customers, we can bring them into the packages that make the most sense for them based on how or where they wanna listen.
I guess that dovetails into, you know, how as you're thinking about the long-term competition in audio, and you have in-car operating systems like Android, Apple CarPlay, I mean, how are you thinking about the positioning of the new app intended to just help Sirius maintain share as things kinda get a bit more fragmented? How are you thinking about that?
Yeah, we have opportunities to capture more share, I think, in the car with streaming. But we already have a very strong position in terms of share of ear in the car. You know, and that's, you know, despite only being in so many cars on the road. But our premium positioning, right, complementary to other audio services, we're gonna continue to lean into that. We have a really strong set of content that's differentiated from these other audio services, and so we expect to be a complementary service to, you know, whatever your other music streaming service or podcast service is. And so that positioning, I think, gives us a really strong opportunity to build listening and share of ear, both in the car and outside of the ear, or outside of the car.
So shifting gears to Pandora and off-platform segment. Second, you know, first quarter on-platform and off-platform ad trends were better than expected, despite, you know, what appears to still be a choppy market. Can you update us on what you're perhaps seeing thus far in the second quarter?
Yeah. The first quarter, we had really strong performance. We were up 7% year-over-year, and that was basically across every piece of our ad business. And, you know, late in the first quarter, we did make some organizational changes to the sales force, and that's been a little disruptive to second quarter performance. And, you know, nothing that we didn't expect to happen, but I think the teams are just settling into the new structures and the new comp packages, et cetera. So I think as we look at the second quarter overall, though, the trends continue. So the, you know, prevalence of advertisers wanting to buy kind of late in the cycle, leveraging programmatic is really good for our business, and we continue to see those trends.
It does make it harder to get a read on an individual quarter because, you know, advertisers are booking late. So, you know, it really comes down to the last, you know, three to four weeks of the quarter. But there's a lot of strong trends across our core categories, whether that's automotive, travel, CPG, retail. And then, going through the second quarter into the third quarter, we'd expect to see much higher political, of course p harmaceutical's been strong. And I mentioned programmatic continues to be very strong. And of course, you know, going into... We're already selling it, but we're adding SmartLess to the portfolio officially in August. And, you know, we've gotten a lot of excitement, you know, among the sales team and in advertisers and in bringing that to our already very robust podcast portfolio.
So it's a great segue. So as the podcast business continues to scale, you've called it out as one of your, you know, one of the biggest areas of incremental content investment. And then, you talked about sell-through, improved programmatic, and but you've also alluded to other features perhaps coming later this year. Can you help us think about how, you know, how have these investments on the content technology side helped differentiate, you know, Sirius from peers to next on the podcast?
Yeah.
Yes.
I'm really proud of our position in podcasting because, you know, we've sort of set a different path than many other companies, and it starts with we've always been a really talent-friendly company. And, you know, there's no shortage of podcast talent, I guess that would love to work with us and we'd love to work with. And we have, you know, a great set of talent relationships across the major podcast networks, and I think there's more opportunities for us there. So it starts with, you know, the talent that we've brought to the platform, and then it extends through to our distribution strategy, which is, you know, broad-based.
So we generally let the talent continue to distribute across third-party platforms, but we're also looking for opportunities to bring these creators, you know, whether it's Ashley Flowers on the True Crime Channel, or it'll be with SmartLess, to bring some content behind the paywall to offer more value to our SiriusXM subscribers and, you know, give the creators access to new audiences. And then, it comes back to our tech, you know, and the tools we've had there continue to bring more brands into the space because of, you know, the, the solutions we've brought across: targeting, measurement, transparency, and just and brand safety and suitability. So that goes back to a lot of advertisers, advertisers wanna come in and buy a show specifically, but the sell-through on some of those big shows is really high and will continue to, you know, improve monetization there.
But also selling across the network and targeting audiences, you know, which works in a lot of other advertising, has really been, you know, a tailwind for us in the podcasting space. And then, in terms of the, you know, you mentioned on the feature set, so we expect to build out more podcast capabilities and features in the SiriusXM app. And part of the reason for that is we are seeing an uptick in consumption of podcasting, not surprisingly, and in our talk on demand, and so we'll continue to invest there as well.
Great. Then, so moving to the financials. So run rate cost savings were, you know, $45 million in 1Q 2024, and this is versus your annual target, I think, of $200 million recently announced. But a portion of these savings have been reinvested into the business, but, you know, with a focus on maintaining overall EBITDA margins. Help us think about the long-term margin profile of the business as you think about, you know, what we discussed on the SiriusXM side, maybe focusing more on, you know, revenue growth as opposed to, you know, ARPU specifically, the digital tier, the ad mix, that we just kinda talked about again, and also maybe future cost opportunities.
Yes. So that's a lot. We have very strong contribution margins and EBITDA margins, as you know, and, you know, so the ability to drive margin growth overall on the EBITDA side is largely a function of driving revenue growth, right? And that's why we're very focused on subscriber and ad revenue growth. And, you know, our margins on variable margins on streaming or in-car subscriptions are both really strong, given our licensing structure. So, you know, feel really good about the contributions that we'll drive in growing subscribers on either side of the business. And we're continuing to, you know, as you talked a little bit about, lean into finding efficiencies across the organization.
So to the extent that, you know, we're not seeing growth in the near term, we'll continue to drive costs out of the business, to help improve margins and fund the investments that we've been talking about. And just to give one example there, really excited about the work we're doing with Sierra on the AI front for customer service, because it's one of those things, and we talk a lot about AI, but this is one of those areas where it just solves for multiple objectives. We are seeing lower cost to serve, we're seeing better business outcomes, and we're seeing better customer service. It turns out that some of the AI agents are very empathetic.
Interesting. And maybe how are you, where are you maybe in that stage of implementing or rolling out AI efficiencies, perhaps more broadly across, you know, the business?
I'd say we're just getting started. And you know, in my opinion, for SiriusXM, it's largely about productivity enhancements and, you know, cost efficiencies. It's less about the consumer-facing product. I mean, we'll use it in marketing. Obviously, there's a lot you can do, and we'll use Salesforce Einstein to really iterate and design customized marketing journeys, as we talked about. But it's less about we're gonna replace all our hosts with AI hosts, right? We really believe fundamentally in the differentiation of our content and leveraging the hosts and the curation that we bring, which is very different than what other services are doing.
I think you'll see a lot of other audio services out there leaning into AI to deliver a more personalized experience, and somehow, in my opinion, that takes away from the authenticity of what we are offering, so we won't-
But-
-be doing that.
Sorry about that.
Yeah.
But you would maybe not necessarily on consumer side or consumer-facing from a talent perspective, but as a maybe, leveraging it to be more efficient from a sales, marketing perspective, promotional. I mean, there's probably.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
On the ad sales side of the business-
Yeah
W e're using synthetic voices, which again, brings more opportunities to smaller businesses to scale their ad campaigns, right? And we talked about customer service, we talked about Salesforce and the marketing side to customize the journeys, and, yeah, also in the product, we'll use more machine learning and AI capabilities to deliver more, personalized recommendations in our products in 360L and in streaming.
Great. Thinking about CapEx, I think you expect peak CapEx in 2024, and some non-satellite spend, you know, however, could remain high into 2025 as you refresh some of your legacy systems. Any help on how we should think about the level of non-satellite spend and satellite spend in 2025, and maybe kind of, you know, comparative, you know, to what we're seeing or anticipating in 2024?
Yes. 2024 should be a peak year across total CapEx, and we've laid out, I think, some guidance in the past about the satellite side, and this year is roughly equivalent to last year at about the $300 million-$380 million level. That should drop to about $175 million and continue dropping thereafter and get close to zero by 2028. The exact timing is obviously a function of the timing of the launches of those 4 satellites. But then on the non-satellite side, we're definitely at a peak year this year as we roll out the new platform and tech capabilities, so that's first started with streaming.
You know, we are prioritizing some improvements on the marketing side for the in-car business, which means that we'll probably push out some of the improvements to the tech stack on commerce and identity into next year. So I think non-sat CapEx will remain elevated, to some extent next year. We also have some end-of-life replacements going through the broadcast and terrestrial side of the business, but then beyond that, should come down to a more normalized level that is probably around $300 million or slightly lower than that in 2026 and beyond.
Okay, that's helpful. Then wrapping up here, so thinking about leverage, on the 1Q call, the company reiterated expectations to return to your target leverage range of about low- to mid-3 times in the back half of 2025. You know, with the stock having re-rated, how do you evaluate potential share buybacks near-term or take advantage of current valuations, which maybe then perhaps could delay that return to, you know, the target leverage range?
. So we're focused on completing the Liberty transaction, and still, you know, expect that to be in the early part of the third quarter. And after that, yes, we've talked about target leverage in the low to mid threes, and, you know, like, the foundation of the business and our margins and our cash flow is incredibly strong. And, you know, we expect tailwinds beyond operating performance on the cash flow side of the business, given, you know, CapEx like we talked about, and taxes. So that gives us a lot of opportunity, and I would expect us to continue to target that leverage ratio. We have time to get there, and yeah, to the extent that there's dislocation in the market, you know, we could enter the market for share repurchases post-deal.
Okay. We have some questions coming in over the line here. Any update on the Audible deal?
So we are in process. I believe later this month or perhaps early June, we'll roll out the first phase of that. You know, it starts small, but I'm really excited about our opportunity to work together given the, you know, very similar, I think, subscriber bases and opportunities to offer one another services and trials to each of our subscriber bases.
And then I wanted to just touch on one, one item that maybe earlier, as you were kinda thinking about the digital-only product, and you're kinda thinking about the legacy satellite product. 'Cause, on the call, you talked about maybe some subs don't understand why the digital-only tier doesn't come with the in-car listening. Is this just, again, more of a function of early days and of, you know, getting branding, marketing, campaign, and just, you know, helping, helping folks understand the, the product? Or, you know, or does it make sense to have... you know, to position the tier with some different branding? 'Cause, I mean, over time, we're just thinking, I mean, is there a branding issue, or could that be a-
Yeah.
Is that a consideration you're thinking about?
Yeah. It really goes back to the go-to-market strategy and our ability to, you know, really drive this new campaign and closer, bringing people closer to the content we have, because that's where we're really differentiated in terms of our content portfolio. And so bringing that to market, having customers understand the breadth of the content we have, and we're seeing strong signals on, you know, brand, perception and impression as a result of this campaign and this new brand launch. And so, again, it starts at the top of the funnel, bringing people in through content marketing and into the products. We think we have a better chance then to educate customers on, which package is right for them based on how and where they wanna listen. And this is really core to future growth, right?
Because it really is that first priority of driving improvements in our subscription business, and returning to subscriber growth that's fundamentally about providing more package choice and educating customers about the strength of our content offering. And then, of course, you know, leaning into opportunities in our ad business and, efficiencies in our org structure and, and our business overall that, will continue to put us on a path to future growth.
All right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. Thank you, Jennifer.
Thank you.