Hopefully improve trading dynamics overall, and then hopefully index inclusion in the future. So, on the, you know, sort of company structure side, a lot more simplicity. But, you know, a lot else remains the same. We continue to be focused on delivering unique audio experiences to our listeners across our products. We are on our way to transforming the business to deliver long-term success, and we're building off this great foundation of strength in our core SiriusXM service with, you know, low churn, high ARPU, high margins, our leading digital audio advertising segment of the business, and then really strong recurring free cash flow generation, which will be growing in the future as well. And that leads me, I guess, to my last point, which is the transaction basically represents an accelerated leverage share repurchase.
And so we'll be retiring 12% of the shares, or just did, and assuming about $1.6 billion in debt. And so our focus now is using this great free cash flow to invest in the business to position us for the future, and also to continue our dividend, our very healthy dividend, and, and to make sure that we are de-levering back down to our target leverage ratio.
Let's talk about some of the ways you're investing in the business. One of your main priorities is to strengthen your presence in the car. One of the debates I most often have with investors is: What's the long-term growth outlook for the in-car satellite service? Lots of competition that's come up in the space. Could you maybe just talk a little bit more about the ways you're strengthening SiriusXM inside the car and perhaps what it would take to get that subscription business back to recurring levels of growth?
Yeah, so the SiriusXM side of the business, obviously very focused on the car. We have leading share of ear among premium audio services inside the car. We're known for being associated with the car. We have a lot of opportunities to continue to build that side of the business, so that's one of our primary objectives, is to continue to enhance value of the SiriusXM subscription. And at least in our in-car presence, we're driving that in three different ways, so we have an opportunity. We just announced that we are building out penetration with Ford more broadly across their vehicle models, and so continuing to drive the relationships we have with the OEMs is really important. We're the only company that has those kind of relationships, and it gives us preferred positioning in the car.
We launched a number of three-year subscription bundles that dealers can order with OEMs, Toyota and GM, GM being, you know, two of the biggest ones, and that gives us an opportunity to reach even more potential subscribers who may not have elected to subscribe to SiriusXM, but will get it in the purchase of their car, and then lastly, to make sure that we're available in the pure-play EVs, right? Because, you know, we launched with Lucid last year. We still have a couple of big ones that we're working on and hope to have more to say on that in the future, but it's really about maximizing the trial funnel, you know, with all those relationships, and then second is to build out 360L, the rollouts there.
You know, we've had a lot of success with 360L, and I think there's a lot more to capitalize on there. The metrics are really strong, but we also want to be agnostic about the delivery mechanism into the car. You'll see us with more streaming-only delivery or distribution into the car, and also we're enhancing our CarPlay and Android Auto implementations because we really want to be wherever customers are listening to audio, right? The last piece that hopefully we'll talk more about is just pricing and packaging, and making sure that we have more flexibility in our pricing and packaging structure so that, you know, we can create packages that address demand from a broader set of audiences.
So these three areas will really help us expand the trial funnel, improve conversion and retention over time, which are all the metrics that lead to a growing in-car business.
I want to drill into a few of those pieces a little bit more, maybe 360L, starting with, c ould you maybe just remind us where you are in terms of the penetration curve of 360L, where you are today, what that curve looks like over the next five or so years, and then what the software roadmap against 360L looks like over that period of time?
Yeah.
-and where you hope to get to at some point in the future, three to five years from now?
Yeah. So the promise is finally here. We've been investing in this for several years, and we have about 40% of our new car trial starts that have 360L now. That should go above 50% next year. And of course, as those cars, you know, roll into used cars, we'll start to see it show up more there as well. And in the coming years, we have a couple big OEMs still launching, hopefully, by the end of next year. That'll get above 80%, and that is really critical path for us to make sure that we offer this advanced platform to as many customers as possible. And so the rollouts are continuing in a really strong way. We are very focused on the roadmap on really three areas.
The first is making sure that it's a really personalized experience, that there's enhanced content discovery, and that's both in the car with the product, but also in our marketing communications outside the car, leveraging the data we're getting back. And then there's a more seamless experience between that in-car implementation and all of our streaming products outside of the car. And we'll have more capabilities there to even sort of download the app from the in-car interface. That will encourage more streaming outside of the car. And then the last piece is ad tech. So leveraging the ad tech capabilities we have to build out better targeted advertising in the car, and that'll become even more important as we start to lean into free access and, and other, you know, packages in the car that have more ads associated with them.
So, that's where we're at in 360L. We feel really good about the opportunity here and how these, the software roadmap will enhance our ability to deliver better metrics.
On points of conversion, any sense of where you're seeing conversion come in at for 360L-enabled cars? How that might compare to some of the older generations of vehicles without 360L? And be more curious within the used car base. As 360L penetrates deeper into the used car base, you know, where are conversions at today? Where do you think you could perhaps get them to as maybe some of that more, you know, integration and as content
Mm-hmm
becomes easier to discover, where you think you get conversions?
The used car volumes are still pretty small, but on the new car side, it's really all of the opportunities for content discovery and personalization that 360L unlocks that gives us an opportunity to improve our overall business metrics. And we're seeing it across the board, right? We're seeing it in better conversion rates for 360L vehicles versus non-360L. And then once the customers are self-pay, we also see better retention in ARPU over time as well. It's more satisfaction with the product. Content recommendations are core to that, so providing, again, this, more customized experience and making sure people can find the content they love on both in the product and then, you know, the marketing that we do alongside that to continue to encourage that.
So yeah, the key for us is to making sure that these improved metrics persist as we continue to roll it out, right? Some of the improved metrics are associated with higher-end vehicles when we're launching early on, but there's still materially higher metrics in 360L vehicles, and what's core to making sure that they persist as we roll it out is really two things, and that's feature parity. With our AAOS implementations, we'll have more of that, and then making sure that consumers are aware of all the great capabilities and features in the product, and that's where the marketing really comes in.
Got it. One of the other areas you've been focused on is pricing and packaging. There's been, I think, a lot of changes, a lot of expansion at both ends of the spectrum over the last couple of years for SiriusXM. Could you maybe talk a little bit more about the strategy and ultimately, where you hope to go with your pricing and packaging strategy over time?
Yeah. So in December, we launched streaming only at $9.99, which is a really compelling price point, and we've been looking for a better entry price, entry price point for the in-car side of the business as well. And so we are gonna start rolling out a $9.99 price point for in-car, which is music only. It does include streaming. And I think the objective we have here is to make sure that we're capturing a broader set of audiences, of course, and I think over time we've had a really healthy in-car business. We've been able to generally price insensitive, we've been able to raise prices on those subscriptions for many years, and I think in the process, we've left some potential subscribers behind, right?
At a $9.99 price point, we've done, in some of the testing we've done, we see really strong customer satisfaction, a lot of transparency, and better ultimate retention. We're really eager to start rolling that out later this year. Hopefully, in the process, it'll help us, you know, reduce the reliance we've had on discounted promotional plans, both in acquisition and retention, and put us on a better path for revenue optimization going forward. But really, the objective more broadly in our pricing and packaging strategy is to make sure that we have a broader set of offerings, but also continue to enhance those premium price subscriptions that we have. That means opening up the funnel more broadly. We use a lot of off-platform, you know, sampling and social and in other platforms, podcasting, for instance.
But we wanna have more access to our content in, behind the pay... Sorry, in front of the paywall on our platform as well, and then put customers into these entry-level sort of $9.99 price points, but also have the opportunity to upsell into our more premium price products, right? Where there will be differentiation among a number of levers, right? Whether it's content, ads, more capabilities, or even other perceived benefits like bundled services. And then we also think there's opportunity at the top.
We just have a very affluent customer base, and there's probably more for us to do in looking at the assets we have between Pandora and SiriusXM to create a bundle at the top with, you know, the great music discovery that's SiriusXM, but also the interactive music capabilities of Pandora and bring those together in a much more robust package.
Could you maybe talk a little bit more about the opportunity on the bundle? I think when SiriusXM originally bought Pandora, there was excitement around the potential to bundle the services together in a way that, you know, maybe would go after a higher-end consumer. I appreciate there's probably been some, you know, licensing restrictions-
And technical
around that.
Yeah.
Technical restrictions around it. What are the key barriers going forward to maybe enable-
Yeah
a more robust bundle?
And those are the two primary ones, and we wanna be very deliberate about how we're putting this together. And so it's gonna take time, and we'll test our way into it, and we're getting a lot of insights because of the new streaming platform and all of the telemetry we're getting back to see how younger audiences are leaning into more on-demand content. And I think some of that will provide really strong insights for: Is there a potential for a bundle that makes sense? I do think there's opportunity because of, you know, this great music discovery platform we have, and then customers wanna very easily save a song down to a playlist.
I think, hopefully, we'll get to the right place, you know, with the discussions with, you know, the music licensors on that, because I think it's sort of a win-win for everyone.
That's great. You also recently launched a free access plan, an ad-supported plan in the car. Could you talk a little bit more about the strategy behind free access? Do you see this more as a subscriber acquisition tool at the moment, or a scalable lever to grow your advertising revenue from that?
Yeah, it's really small right now. We just have it in a couple of OEMs, and the volumes are small, but it's been a great way to test and learn into this product, and we've been excited to do this for many years, and it's so it's a limited set of channels, and it's ad-supported, broadcast ads to start, but over time, it unlocks both those areas, so you know, right now, we have a free trial, and if customers don't convert, then they have nothing, so we really, you know, like many other services, would benefit from a persistently free tier in the car, just as an ongoing opportunity to upsell customers into our subscriptions, and over time, as we learn more, we're gonna be able to provide more targeted promotional inventory in there to be able to do just that.
And then, as we build, because it's gonna be associated with the rollout of 360L, as we build those volumes, we'll be able to, I think, unlock a bigger ad opportunity as well. I mean, that's one of the sort of last terrains, right, for addressable advertising, is the car. And with our great OEM relationships and the rollout of 360L, I think we have a real opportunity to provide advertisers, a window to really reach those audiences in the car through this platform. So, a lot more work to do to test it and learn better about what content makes sense, what ad load makes sense, and how can we capitalize on both those opportunities.
On the ad opportunity, and thinking long term here, any sense of what a reasonable maybe ARPU would be, for the in-car experience? Because you are able to do addressable over 360L. Is there maybe, like, a target in mind of what you perhaps could achieve on the ad play there?
Well, yeah. I mean, I think it really plays into the overall pricing strategy, and we have a lot of great science on the Pandora side, for instance, about how the interplay between ad-supported and then no ads in our Pandora Radio product and Plus, and how we can use the science on ad load to upsell people into those subscription products. And so over time, I think we'll be able to leverage that capability in SiriusXM as well, to make sure that we're sort of like the SVODs, I think you hear them talking about, maximize ARPU across the set of packages.
Yep. Let's focus on your strategy outside the vehicle. You mentioned the new streaming service, which you launched late last year, a new app redesign, new pricing and packaging, a new go-to-market strategy, new brand redesign, as well as as part of that. Talk a little bit more about the opportunity you're going after in streaming only, and why you believe SiriusXM has the right to win in the streaming market?
Sure
which is, you know, fairly competitive at the moment.
Definitely. Look, the streaming platform that we're building supports multiple parts of the business. It's sort of the backbone of 360 L, ultimately, and the streaming implementations we're launching in-vehicle. It also supports more engagement for our in-car subscribers outside of the car. We want to have a robust set of streaming products there, whether it's the apps or connected devices. And then, of course, there's the streaming-only opportunity. And, you know, I think we have more work to do to ensure that we're well-positioned as a complementary product to other streaming services. We are fundamentally different in terms of our content portfolio, very differentiated, and we believe we have a very compelling price point at $9.99. Great set of content, much broader and different than the other streaming services, in terms of live and human-curated.
but, you know, there really is an opportunity for us to go after this younger set of audiences with this product, and right now, we are working through all of the data and insights we're getting back and watching how younger consumers and our in-car base are engaging with the product to better design and, I think, open up, improve product market fit for streaming only as well.
On some of those engagement stats, on your Q2 call, you called out some positive momentum you're seeing on the streaming-only side of the business. Some positive proof points, I think you mentioned. Could you maybe just talk a little bit more about what those exactly are? And then, as you look ahead into the end of this year and maybe even 2025 , any goals that you have around scaling the subscriber base of the streaming-only service?
Yeah. So when we first launched, we took a dip in engagement metrics, primarily on the base of subscribers that was already listening. We've since recovered there, and we're seeing continued momentum and progress on the growth audiences as well. And so where we're seeing progress is because of the personalization capabilities, so we're getting listeners into a broader set of content, formats, and genres. And in particular, with growth audiences, we do see more engagement, like I mentioned before, on our On Demand content, which is much more accessible in the app now with the redesign. We also see higher time spent listening in general in the streaming product. So there's a lot more opportunity, I think, to unlock that going forward. Now, we're not seeing that translate into business metrics yet.
Mm-hmm
But I think the data that's coming through and working through our marketing campaigns, off platform and on platform, to personalize performance media and our onboarding journeys, is going to lead us down that path. So we're certainly looking forward to improved metrics as we go through this year and into next year. And we're leveraging all of that data and those capabilities to build more personalized models on the in-car side of the business, too, right? And if you think about the capabilities we have to unlock, just we talked about 360L in general, but with all of this, you know, real data and insights coming back from the 360L platform, as well as streaming, we're gonna better customize marketing, not just about what content people might like or features, but also what channel of marketing is best to reach them.
What payment mechanism might they want to use? At what point in the trial should we be targeting to convert them? So there's a lot of the insights that we get from the streaming side of the platform that are going to permeate the improvements on the business, on the in-car business as well.
Any sense of what those subscriber acquisition verticals could be the most efficient ones at this point? I think back to your subscription, the satellite subscription service, had arguably the one of the best subscriber acquisition models, you could think of someone purchases a new or used car, market to them either at the dealership-
We get their information.
or in the three months.
Yeah, exactly.
after they purchase. It's a great opportunity to target that customer. The streaming side, I think it's a little bit more esoteric in a way. Any thoughts on what works best at the moment?
A very different process of acquisition, right? And so it's a combination, it's full funnel marketing, starting with brand and, you know, more content marketing at the top, bringing people in through social and other performance media, and then bringing them into this funnel and maximizing the, you know, the throughput and the sales flows. There's a lot of mechanics to it, but. We have a lot of room to improve performance there. But the channels we're leveraging today, of course, the app stores, general performance media. Organic is also a big channel for us, just people coming to the website. And we have to better design kind of the go-to-market around, would you want streaming or would you want our in-car product?
And we're making a lot of improvements there based on, you know, some of the insights we're getting about the audiences who might want each. And then I think partnerships is also a big area for us to unlock. We've had some real progress with companies like T-Mobile and Walmart, and I think there's more to do there to open up that acquisition funnel.
Great. On streaming only, one of the concerns I hear most often from investors is around the possibility of the lower price of the streaming-only service, repricing the base or cannibalizing the existing satellite base, which is priced at a, you know, relatively higher ARPU. Just curious, your thoughts on this and, you know, the pricing strategy, thinking longer term on streaming only. I imagine it's not always going to be a $9.99 service, but be curious on your thoughts on how you've stair-stepped that price, but still, you know, manage to penetrate deeper into the younger cohort and build scale there.
Yeah. We're being very strategic about our audience segments, right? And there's a set of listeners who are younger and are definitely leaning into streaming services through CarPlay and Android Auto and just mobile in general. And we want to make sure we have a very compelling price point. We talked earlier about complementary, right? Needing to be truly complementary to another on-demand music service, and we need to have a compelling price point. At $9.99, we're actually less than most of those other services. So we really believe that's fundamental to attracting new audiences into the product.
On the in-car side of the business, we just have a really, you know, very strong, loyal subscriber base, many, customers paying full price for a very long time, and we want to continue to deliver more value to those subscribers in their packages. Again, more content. You see us adding a lot of content to the portfolio, you know, over time, and then making it easier for them to access and find that content. Other, perceived benefits, like the, you know, Walmart+ bundle I mentioned. There's a lot of other ways that we can continue to enhance the value of those subscriptions to create that differentiation. So I think there are a lot of levers to pull, right? Ads, content, access, and others, so that we can create that differentiation.
But it's also about, again, sort of establishing the real audience segmentation to make sure that we're getting customers into the package that's right for them.
Got it. Maybe on pricing more broadly, thinking industry-wide, we've seen some of the DSPs, the Spotifys of the world, take price recently. Just curious, zooming out, industry level, your view for the price of a premium audio, yourself included, where you think some of your competitors are going. Do you see recurring pricing increases as part of the backdrop you're managing towards?
Yeah, I mean, I can't speak to what other companies are doing. They certainly have been taking quite a bit of price and the last couple of years even, and we've done that consistently over our history, and we believe that there's still more opportunity for us to do so, as long as we're delivering more value alongside that, and in some ways, it's just not as comparable. I mean, our in-car price points are... Yes, you get this in-car service, but you also get a streaming subscription alongside that, right? Because you have access to both, and again, I think it's creating compelling price points that position us as complementary and making sure that we're delivering value again to our in-car base, you know, as we continue to look to raise price there.
Got it. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about your advertising business. SiriusXM has one of the strongest collections of audio advertising assets, I think, out there with Pandora, your podcasting business, SXM Media. Curious, the overarching strategy to bring these two assets, all these assets together, maybe grow the platform over the next three to five years. Where do you see the most opportunity at this point?
Yeah, I mean, the ad business, you see us adding more inventory, right, and it has a lot to do with our overall content strategy, but we've brought new podcasts to the platform in terms of SmartLess and Call Her Daddy, and we think it's a great way to again bring more opportunities for advertisers to you know take advantage of the set of assets that we have on the table, and we'll continue to deliver and bring more to our portfolio because we have such strong sales and tech capabilities to leverage across all these platforms, and it helps Pandora too, right? Ultimately, we can sell these things across the portfolio.
In certain cases, with the podcasts we've brought, we have extensions into live events, video, and social as well, so really a much more robust set of offerings. We'll also continue to invest in our ad tech solutions for advertisers. That's, you know, doubling down on our programmatic, which is a great place to be right now with advertisers kind of coming into the market last minute, you know, for buys, and then making sure that we have solutions for smaller advertisers in terms of self-serve, and really providing a robust set of targeting and measurement capabilities, given all the privacy, you know, regulation that's coming forward.
Also in advertising and where I think, you know, maybe your question is going a little bit, how do these businesses work together is leveraging that ad tech for hopefully increasing persistent free tier in the car as well, and other ad-supported packages, perhaps at SiriusXM.
You mentioned programmatic and the ad tech stack behind it. Just talk a little bit more about the capabilities you're looking to build out, specifically within an ad tech, maybe the roadmap over the next year or two, and, you know, to the extent we could see that flow through in things like revenue or monetization or CPMs, and premium audio. Where do you think that goes over the next 12 to 24 months?
Yeah, we've really been effective at improving monetization at Pandora, and a lot of that has to do with looking for different ways to bring advertiser solutions into the Pandora platform. That could be shorter ad pods and things like that. In podcasting, a lot of the listening is off-platform, but we've brought a lot of new tech there. We can allow advertisers to sell across the network or lean into, obviously, a specific podcast. Programmatic is, you know, really been a strong growth engine for the business, and we continue to lean into building more capabilities there. Again, targeting and measurement being really critical for that.
And, you know, like I talked about building out some more solutions for smaller businesses and medium-sized businesses on self-serve, whether that's AI tools to set up your campaign or even just, you know, synthetic voices, which we launched in-market earlier this year, so they can really just come in and design their own campaigns and push them out broadly across our network.
Got it. Maybe touching on content. You mentioned some of the more recent pieces of content you added to your portfolio. But thinking, you know, back historically, SiriusXM has been a leader in premium audio content. I think Greg made a comment yesterday that SiriusXM's content strategy was designed for 40 or 50 year-old men twenty years ago, but that's obviously changing. So just curious if you could talk a little bit more about the recent pieces of content that you brought in, Call Her Daddy being, I think, one of the more recent ones, and ultimately where you want the content strategy to get to.
Yeah, so the strategy at SiriusXM has really been fundamentally about human curation, right? And bringing something very differentiated to the market, whether it's, you know, the hosts on our music channels or the curation of the bundled content we have in general. We have so much passion for the individual hosts and the talent and, you know, the various commentators on our platform, whether it's music or politics or comedy or otherwise. So there's just a lot of passion among our consumers for our human-curated content, and we're gonna continue to lean into that differentiation. But I think and so something like Alex Cooper, where, you know, she's a phenomenal talent, and she'll have exclusive content for SiriusXM, helps us bring more younger audiences to the platform.
And the fact that we'll have the podcast more widely available helps with kind of her informing her broader audience on different platforms, that she has this exclusive content at SiriusXM. So, you know, you've seen us add a lot to the portfolio, in the last few years, and we'll continue to optimize that over time to make sure that we have the right content set for the audiences we want to address. And with more data and insights, we're gonna be even more efficient about the content that we have on the platform.
One of the questions I've been getting from investors since doing the Alex Cooper deal is the monetization mechanism behind it. Is this something that can be supported by a purely advertising model, or are there other ways that you can leverage the content, perhaps putting it behind a paywall or using it on the subscriber acquisition front?
Yeah.
Just curious, you know, look at the headline deal, north of $100 million, I think, over three years. How do you-
Everyone wants a $100 million deal, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's... She's a phenomenal talent, and I think we have a really great opportunity that maybe others don't have to monetize, whether it's broadly distributed, you know, across other third-party platforms to maximize the audience and generate ad revenue. But then also on top of that, create more exclusive content for SiriusXM subscribers to enhance the value, right, of our subscription packages. And so she's gonna be doing a little bit of both. We have the same with SmartLess, we have the same, you know, to different levels of extent with Crime Junkie and, you know, with other that will be... Some others that we have that are in the works, that'll be coming soon.
So it's a really nice way to keep, you know, broadly distributed and sort of, like, have our cake and eat it too, if you will, right? We get to maximize ad revenue, but also generate more subscription value for SiriusXM. And again, I think that's pretty unique for us. We've been very disciplined in how we've invested in content over the years and, you know, we are incredibly focused on continuing to lean into our differentiated content portfolio at SiriusXM, but also maximize our ad opportunities on the other side of the business.
Got it. I want to get to cost structure, but first, maybe just an update on the current operating environment. So your 2024 guidance calls for some pressure on both self-pay net adds and revenue. Could you maybe touch on some of the near-term headwinds you're seeing in the business this year, and perhaps how you're feeling about execution going into the fall and the back part of the year? Just curious if you have any updates on that front.
Yeah, I think, some of the headwinds we're facing this year are pretty consistent that, we've seen over the last couple of years. It's a combination of some of the market dynamics just generally at play, economic uncertainty, also, you know, shifting consumer behaviors and, increased competition. And that's put some pressure on our top line, and that's one of the reasons we've been so focused on making sure that the cost structure is as efficient as possible, so we can also be investing in the business to position us for longer-term growth, right? Because there is so much opportunity to unlock in this business, but we want to make sure that we're balancing sort of short-term results with longer-term investments, right, to ensure our future success. So as we look at this year, we feel good about the guidance.
You know, $8.75 billion in revenue, $2.7 billion in EBITDA, and then $1 billion in free cash flow, which we adjusted for the Liberty transaction impact. Of course, we've provided the general context around self-pay net adds, that this year will be better than last year. So we feel still on track with all of that. There's certainly been, you know, there's certainly been some uncertainty, right? There's a lot of choppiness in the market right now, and so we're watching it really closely, very focused on a solid end to the year, but really positioning the business for future success.
What about on the ad market side? I think we've heard from other companies in the ad space. There's this cautious optimism. Are you seeing or hearing anything different?
You know, it's like headwinds and tailwinds, right? You know, we'll see cancellations from big accounts. They'll come. They say they're gonna come back into the market, you know, in the Q4. But then again, we have the tailwinds of this great portfolio. We're selling SmartLess, we're out there with Call Her Daddy now. There's politics that, you know, obviously, is better for us year over year. It's not a huge component, but, you know, there should be some tailwinds there. So, you know, it's choppy, and we're watching it carefully. But, you know, we feel pretty good about the second half, but a lot can change in a month or two.
You mentioned the focus on the cost structure earlier. You've identified $200 million in cost opportunities, have executed against a portion of that year to date. I'm just curious if you're learning anything that might suggest that there's greater than $200 million of cost efficiencies as you begin to execute against that initial set of opportunity or anything, you know, from an operational perspective that you've learned as you've undertaken this efficiency?
Yeah, I mean-
Program.
It's always the easy ones that come first, and then the next set is always coupled with investment, right? And so, you know, we talked a bit about customer service and all the AI investments we're making to deliver a better ultimately, customer service experience, and that's gonna play out over time. So we're not all the way there this year, but there's more opportunity to unlock there, and marketing as well, right? When we've talked about the model we've had in the past, we've used direct mail, we've used outbound telemarketing. There's ways to get more efficient there as we improve the tools that we're using and deliver a better personalized experience at a lower cost.
Got it. CapEx remains elevated this year, going through the satellite replacement cycle. Curious long term, though, non-satellite CapEx, once we're through the CapEx cycle, once we're through some of the investments, initial investments on technology, where you see normalized CapEx for SiriusXM over the long term?
Yeah. So I think we have good visibility into satellite. We've talked about that a lot. You know, other than shifts in timing, we should be on track. On the non-satellite, you know, we expect this year to be about $450 million to 500 million. Next year, probably sustains at, you know, a similar level, while we get through this, not only the replatform of the tech stack, but some, you know, end-of-life improvements we're doing across the broadcast infrastructure and the repeater network. And then after that, you know, I'm hopeful that we'll get down below the $400 million level. And how close we get to sort of that $300 million of normalized CapEx we had in years past for non-satellite, really depends on how efficient we can be in serving the OEMs, right?
There's a lot of different permutations of the implementations there. And, you know, how do we manage both developing and supporting the future, but also, you know, keeping some of these legacy implementations in place?
Got it. Last question for me, just on leverage and capital allocation, post-Liberty deal. Out of the gate, you're operating a little bit above the high end of your target leverage. Would be curious your thoughts on timing to get back to low to mid-threes, which I think is where you're targeting net leverage at the moment. And then, how you're thinking about capital allocation, both, you know, during that process of the leveraging, but also too once you hit that target. And then specifically within that, share repurchase has been a hallmark of SiriusXM over the last decade. Would you consider share repurchases to take advantage of where the stock's trading at today, even if it meant perhaps, you know, prolonging the pace to get to target leverage?
I think we want to be flexible, right? And our main priority is making sure that we're using our cash flow to fund the opportunities we believe we have and are very confident we have to grow the business in the long term.
Mm-hmm.
And so you see that in the operating structure, obviously, and CapEx, as we talked about. And then we're gonna continue our dividend, and we would expect to delever over time as, you know, we use our cash flow to get back to our target leverage ratio. And we'll be opportunistic about share repurchases, but the main focus is on delevering and making sure that we're investing in the future of the business.
Great. Jennifer, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.