Good morning, everyone. We can go ahead and get started. So a couple disclosures. Please note that important disclosures, including my personal holdings disclosures and Morgan Stanley disclosures, all appear at the handout available in the registration area and on the Morgan Stanley public website. Okay, with that, I'd like to introduce Mark Penn, Chairman and CEO of Stagwell. Stagwell is a digital-first global marketing challenger network built to transform marketing. Mark, great to see you. Thank you for coming.
Thank you for having me.
To start, I guess, can you give a high-level overview of Stagwell, how it came to be, and what differentiates Stagwell from other competitors in the marketplace?
Sure. I started Stagwell 8 years ago with an investment from Steve Ballmer and myself. I always say it was a larger part of my net worth than Steve's. And the goal was to create a new marketing company that would be digital first, that would be the first real competition for the major marketing companies in 40 or 50 years. And to be, you know, digital first, and at the same time, to build on what I had as 40 years of experience across polling, public relations, messaging, advertising. I ran Microsoft's advertising. I ran Burson-Marsteller. I ran several presidential campaigns. So to put together that experience with my business know-how to build the company.
And so eight years later, we're at 12,000 people, $2.5 billion of revenue, across the disciplines, and we are, in fact, I think, you know, achieving the vision that we set out to achieve.
That's great. As you look ahead into 2024 and beyond, you know, what are your investment priorities for the business, and what are you most excited about?
I think if you go to what is the vision of Stagwell, it really is to be, on the one hand, full service global in nature, on the other hand, also have tech self-service platforms. So if you look at where we are now, we are 80% U.S., we're 20% international. We are scaling up in the contracts that we achieve. When I came, we were doing $1 million-$3 million contracts. Now, $3 million-$5 million are probably the sweet spot. We're getting more 10 million-$15 million. We're beginning to break into the $20 million leagues. All of those things are kind of what I call climbing the ladder. We're in 34 countries. Our objective will be to be organic, you know, with our own facilities in about 55 countries.
We also have 70 affiliates, and we are in fact, you know, almost every pitch that we run is against one of the four majors.
Speaking of geographic exposure, I know about 80% of revenue comes from the US. Do you have a long-term ideal mix?
Ideally, we'd like to be 60/40 U.S. I don't think it's going to flip around to 80/20 the other way. I think eighty And most of that is not so much to dominate in global markets. I think we're very, very strong in the U.S. There's virtually no assignment in the U.S. we don't have resources to accomplish. We're opening... You know, I made my second priority, establishing a firm business in Europe. We had a lot of smaller operations in Europe that were disparate in nature. As of this week, actually, and we'll have the formal opening in about a month, we've opened up Bluefin, which has 750 Stagwellians from research, media, creative, public relations, across all the disciplines in one place.
This is making a tremendous difference because now, now as a one-stop shop, for Europe, based in London, we're getting, again, $3-$5 million... All of a sudden, we're getting pitches in Europe of the size relative to Europe, relative to the U.S., that we would get, which we were not getting. And I think that is going to open the doors for us to significant growth. Already, I think the U.K. was, grew, and if I have this right, something like 20%. And I think you're going to see, that when we put the assets together, we've done the same thing in Singapore. We've got critical mass going in Singapore. So the goal here is to kind of continue to extend out our presence in Asia.
We just bought our first office in France, so we're extending more into the continent as well. And then I think you're gonna see, you know, some activity in the Middle East over time, where we just have a small footprint.
Got it. That's helpful. On the European theme, Stagwell recently acquired Sidekick and What's Next Partners-
Mm-hmm.
-both European-based. I guess, as you think broadly of the current M&A environment, you know, how are multiple trending, or how are multiples trending in the private market? And are there any other specific type of acquisitions you're focused on?
We are generally conservative buyers. We're not. We're, in fact, most often the second bidder because we provide an environment that I think the companies like and feel they can grow in as much as an economic return. You know, a lot of the companies that we would not bid up for end up at us for. And so we're very disciplined, I think, in our approach. I do think the market has gotten better. I think basically, if you go back a year, the market was so bad that people were just not going to even put their companies on the marketplace. We again tend to pay 5-7x all in. You know, maybe that'll go 6x-8x.
You know, I think there's a little bit of upward movement on that. When we sold an asset, we got an 18x multiple for it, so if you have the right asset in the right place, you can get a really strong multiple.
Great. And speaking of recent sales, in the fourth quarter, you sold a non-core asset for, I think it was $245 million gross proceeds. Are there any other non-core assets that you're potentially looking to sell?
There are. I think I've said at least one, possibly two, non-core assets. I think we're gonna sell. If you kind of think of it, I think it's an integral part of our business. We are a platform. We do, we do acquire a lot of companies, particularly at the kind of $30 million level, and we grow them to the $75 million-$90 million level. And some of those clients, some of those companies really can achieve a nice multiple in the marketplace. I think we don't want to get rid of our core assets, those that are building, those that can be marketed as part of the global marketing structure.
But if something's really not part of that, it's really non-core, and sometimes we invest in some interesting businesses that were not exactly in line with the core philosophy, and we've grown some of those nicely. So I think there'll be about one sale a year. I think this will be integrated into our normal processes because we do have a lot of assets, and as long as our stock is undervalued as it is, I can, if I can sell it, if I can sell, you know, $12-$18, and I can buy at $5-$7, I have a good reinvestment path for the capital.
Sure. That's great. Switching gears a bit. A key part of the ad agency offering is paid media. Stagwell's performance media is one of the only principal capabilities that had positive net revenue growth this last year. Can you talk a little bit about that growth trajectory of that current business?
Yeah, no, I think although it was a tough year in media, I think we managed to eke out some growth in that. I do think that there's gonna be stronger growth this year. We've had a lot of positive wins coming into the end of the year and going into the beginning of the year in the media area. I think it is a strongly developing area. It's also one where, as I said on the earnings call, we'll continue to invest down the media chain from, you know, targeting and servicing and placing to, you know, down through the rest of the chain. I think over time, you could look for us to do that and differentiate the service with those added elements of data and media acquisition.
Got it. Smaller than media, but still important to discuss, is creative.
Mm-hmm.
It's had a decent amount of structural pressure on fees over the years as the cost of production has fallen. Is this an area that's a headwind to overall media growth for you, or how would you- how do you view that?
I view it as a complementary service that we don't expect... We, you know—Generally, if you look at our models, we say creative will have the slowest growth. So then you say, "Well, why do you have creative at all?" And I say, "Great, just show up with some computers." Okay, and the truth is, people try to show up with computers, and we had a choice, you know, really say that you can do the entire waterfront, from great creative to, you know, great targeting to media acquisition. And I believe that the largest scaled, most secure clients want you to be able to do all of those things. That if you look what makes a great marketing campaign, right?
You've got to have good strategy, you've got to have good creative, and you've got to have good execution, and we want to be in all three of those levels. 'Cause if you hit all of those right, your marketing campaign can be as much as 8x times what one of those elements would be. So, we're a believer in that, and we have some fantastic creative agencies.
Sure. That's helpful. Another capability, digital transformation, brings to mind a lot of the competition that's coming in from consultancies. What's your view on their product offering and how Stagwell is differentiated?
We're positioned for the last mile. We're positioned for the consumer experience that one has. If you think about, you know, a company's nowadays, fewer of them may do a full advertising or marketing campaign, and more of them will have, as their central touch point, the consumer online experience, and we build those experiences. It's not just that we build e-commerce sites, news sites, and complex experiences or things like the CNN Magic Wall. It's that there is a last mile here between your systems that are gonna do the supply and operating and data and what actually faces the consumer. I think we're going to, you know, see a real takeoff in restructuring of those things in the coming couple of years as people have to infuse them with AI.
And so our competitive advantage will be, you know, maybe you're gonna hire somebody else for the supply chain, but are you gonna get people who are better at the front-end design and consumer experience than us? No.
Mm-hmm. Would you say that last mile offering is what clients are seeking the most in the digital transformation capability? Because I know it's about 25% of Stagwell's revenue.
No, it's not what they seek the most. Mostly, they seek a lot of boring back-end stuff-
Yeah
... but those are even more difficult businesses. Look, you know, I would say Digital Transformation for us this year was the unexpected hole, right? I think that we've had kind of seven or eight straight years of Digital Transformation backlog, and then particularly coming out of the pandemic. Then I think with the year of efficiency, there was a huge pause because a lot of our—even we are kind of a tailor to the tailors in the sense of the word, in that a lot of our clients are the tech companies themselves. And, you know, some of what I see now is we've seen an easing up of some of that, not back to the whole thing, but I just think it's a matter of time before, you know...
Look, they're building, you know, I'm sure NVIDIA's here can't make enough chips, and then there's cloud, and then there's applications. Well, unless people encourage us to build the ex- applications and do the front-end uses, those chips are gonna sit there rather idle.
Sure. Yeah, that's helpful. In terms of—I guess, we can just hit on, before going into, you know, some of the tech exposure, guidance broadly. You provided guidance for the year for 5-7% organic growth, in 2024, with an Adjusted EBITDA margin in the high teens. How should investors view that guidance in terms of some of the macro risk you attempted to factor in?
I think that obviously, you know, things didn't go as we expected last year, but they did go as we expected the seven years before, more or less, which is how we're here at this scale and size with so little investment, having built it up. I think last year was the outlier or the exception. I think we've taken a prudent view towards guidance, given that we think we're coming out of some of the trends of last year, but we're not completely out of them. But clients seem to be... Certainly, there was a kind of a good push to get going. A lot of people who had been holding off things, really started to get them going come January, come new budgets coming in. They were trying to get through 2023 themselves.
I think that you look at it and say, "Look, we have some improving trends underneath." Maybe the Fed will get to actually cutting rates, which I think will be very strongly in our favor in a lot of ways, because I think you know, small caps have been disfavored during a period of high interest rates, and also because it will give more confidence to the clients who for the spending. I think you have AI projects coming online, and you have the biggest political season in history. So I think those are tailwinds that give us more confidence in 2024 being the 2024 that I hope it will be.
Great. To follow up on the tech exposure, I know in the last earnings, you noted some tech clients beginning to reengage. Do you have any more color on what you're seeing now that we're in March, maybe the types of conversations you're having with these tech clients?
Again, I think, I think from a marketing point of view, part of our role is helping explain AI to their consumers. So I think you see us kind of actively engaged in some of those assignments, to helping to build the last mile, and what AI will look like, and what it will be to their consumers. And I, I think that's a lot of kind of the newest conversations. We're seeing some people who are out of the market, you know, who had really trimmed down in terms of outside services, really begin to put out some RFPs, but again, I'll say, coming back. But what is the, what is the conversation about these days? The conversation is about AI.
Sure. Yeah, I would be remiss to not ask a question about it at this conference. In terms of Stagwell's use of artificial intelligence, you know, how is this, how is this being used for, on your end, to improve data analytics, creative ad targeting capabilities? I'm sure there's a lot that can be used there.
Yeah. No, I think that we're using it at all levels. I think we're using it, number 1, in digital transformation to help clients answer those questions. Number 2, we're using it to simplify some of the creative and research processes. Things like analyzing focus groups and creating storyboards can be greatly facilitated with AI. Some media can be improved, but you know, those sorts of algorithms have been you know in operation for quite some time. And then we are building, and we continue to invest in, and I invested about $20 million net into our tech products that also serve as a key differentiating role.
In the PR industry, our tech product writes the news release for you, uses predictive AI to figure out which journalists and podcasters would be favorable to you, and then writes all the pitches. So that it's a huge time saver. Our suite of Harris Research products, which is still being incubated, is really a self-service suite of research tools for market researchers, and we're building a media studio, which is a very similar kind of thing for clients and other agencies.
That's great. I get questions from investors around AI in the advertising space broadly. You know, when you think about the industry from a long-term perspective, how do you see AI evolving within the, you know, ad industry generally?
Well, I always like to give the example that many years ago I had a survey research company, right? We still have the Harris Poll. And so to do a survey in those days took about 63 people, right? Including, live telephone interviewers, including, key punchers, if you remember those. And today you can do the same survey without 2 or 3 people. So do we still have surveys? Do we have margin in those surveys? Yes, we do. So I think when you look at these services, they become increasingly efficient, but the sophisticated work of creativity, of analysis, of targeting, all of which require a higher level of sophistication and input, and not a lower level, will still be there, even if they're radically different in the way they're executed.
Got it. That's helpful. As you think of the financial impacts, both from a top line and margin perspective from AI, you know, how would you frame the opportunity and potential investment implications?
Again, for us, I believe the biggest opportunity is every single website will have to be reprogrammed. That the interface with consumers should be more personalized and should either be voice-driven or query-driven in ways that it's not now. And that as soon as a couple of big websites are built in that manner, we will realize that they have to build their website like that, and I believe it will kick off an enormous round of work. So I think that's the biggest element of AI. As I said before, we'll have some products that we're getting out, and we will definitely have some internal processes that are changed and simplified.
But the biggest thing is that AI changes how people interface with technology, and that in the past, you've had to interface with technology in an incredibly precise syntax. You had two ways of interfacing. You could ask Google things at, in kind of Google speak, you know, where you'd put TV, Sony, 25 inches. Or you would have to, in voice, talk in a syntax that was rarely understood, and I think you're going to see that undergo a significant change, and it puts you in a much more Star Trek-ian world.
Got it. Some investors worry that service organizations like yours might be disintermediated by AI. Some of the... There's some interesting content creation tools that are already coming to market. Is that a concern misplaced, and if so, why?
Well, yeah, no, I think to go back to my survey example, I don't think you, you shrink more than 63 to 3, unless you think it's going from 64 to 3 to 0, right? Maybe now we can have some tools, and it's 2, but those, they still have tremendous value. You know, what I always say is the, the value of data is, over time, sinking to 0, and the value of analysis to infinity. Because simple projects and simple, simple things are solved by computers, or automatically, or just as you're experiencing with your self-driving car, it's easier to do the highway than it is to do the local streets. And so what happens is that those remaining problems become more and more complex and more and more sophisticated, so that your market space and how you execute things changes.
But I do not believe that marketing is going to be run purely by computers. Obviously, programmatic ad placement is a huge benefit and a boom, but because now you have a multiplicity of social media outlets, TV outlets, connected TV, you also have a much greater degree of complexity that a marketer has to solve, and that creates more work. And then not only is there complexity, but then you have to worry, well, if I gave it all over to one tech company to solve, they're going to just provide their solutions, and the truth is, I need an independent solution. So I don't think at the end of the day, the story, the story of agencies being disintermediated is an old one, old as time.
I always say Americans don't like marketing because they think the products should sell without it, and that they kind of always wanna kind of sell them without the marketing. But it turns out that marketing is about 13% of every dollar and is a critical differentiator between a successful and unsuccessful product.
Definitely. Let's switch gears a bit to political. You've described it as a, I think maybe a hyper competitive political year. Can you remind us how you're exposed to the U.S. political election cycle, and what type of growth driver that should be in 2024?
Sure. We have some companies that are engaged in politics, on one side, running campaigns, and on the other side, low dollar fundraising. And so we have a diverse exposure to the political marketplace, and we expect this to be the biggest political year in history, and we believe that we're well positioned, to provide good service in those areas.
As you think about your political advocacy guide for this year, you know, what's baked into that guidance? And, you know, how should growth trend as the year progresses?
I think, I think you could do the math to figure out what's baked into the guidance. We give you... I mean, I decided early on that you'd never be able to model the company if I didn't give you ex advocacy, and advocacy, because you would, you wouldn't understand what happens in the odd years versus the even years. So, again, I think 2022 is generally going to be a lighter year. 2020 was a very strong year. 2020 also had a runoff in Georgia that was worth an extra $10 million, which we probably don't have any analogous event. But I do think that the, you know, the political marketplace itself ought to grow, I think, like 20% or so from what it was in, in 2020.
... Got it. And staying on the topic of guidance, could you walk through the puts and takes of the margin guide? You know, where are you currently investing, and where are you looking for efficiencies?
Yeah, I think that we're looking for efficiencies first in the back office. You know, we really only got together about 2.5 years ago when we did the merger, and so it's about time now that we've got centralized HR, centralized accounting, centralized media. The systems have pretty much come online now for about 90% of the company, and I'm a fanatic about trying to run the back office more efficiently. And so I do think there's another $30 million-$35 million that can be taken out of those back office operations. But in the front office, we're also doing centralized production now, that we think will be online by middle of the year.
We're also building our own survey panel, so each of those moves could be worth $10 or another $10 or $15 million a year. So that's how, you know, I think obviously there's been some labor inflation over time here, but some added efficiency. So I think getting the firms in a mode of understanding that it's a cost-declining service over time is an important mode, as it becomes more efficient and tech-friendly. So I think those are the various areas that we operate, but our goal is to, you know, get back to about the 20% margin over time. I think we've guided to less, this year, 'cause again, I think we're being, you know, prudent.
Right. And on that guidance, when you think about your organic revenue growth and how that flows through the model, you know, how much does that have an impact on the margin guide? Just general top line.
Oh, it does, because, because it, you know, in some ways you're a hotel, right? And if the guests don't come and your hotel is empty that night, you know, it still costs you exactly the same to run the hotel. So in the... I mean, the reason why marketing companies have been, I think, as secure in the marketplace, is that we're a variable cost industry with not that many fixed costs, no copper mines, no planes, things like that. So we can usually over 60 or 90 or 120 days, adapt to changing economic circumstances. But in the short term, if everybody, like...
I think when I look at the difference between 2022's January and 2023's January, 2023's January, in the short term, if people, you know, come in and make changes, we can be stuck with a, with a change in the margin. But we will, over the long- term, either the business will come back or we'll adjust the cost down and reestablish our margin footing. There's no long-term reset like that, even if there are short-term dislocations.
Got it. You had about $213 million in net new business wins last year?
$270. That was through 3, third quarter.
270. Got it. How do you expect that to translate into, to revenue growth this upcoming year?
Well, ... You know, again, we had the thing where we continued to show strong new business. Look, the thing is, that is the strongest new business LTM in the history of the company or companies, either way. So, I think that that is a good start to the year. It's all about what do existing clients and projects do. Last year, existing clients and projects had the kind of level of pullback. I've given the guidance that I've given. I've been prudent, you know, figuring things could still go wrong. But, if that number was $150, I probably wouldn't even be down here. With that number as it is, it gives me confidence that we're growing in stature, we're growing in assignments, we're growing our client base.
Even if there are some cyclical changes that we have to adapt to, we will adapt to them. The most important element of our story is our growth within the industry, and going to larger clients and bigger and, and even, and new names.
Sure. Mark, how are you thinking about growth from a long-term perspective for Stagwell? You previously said you expect 10%-12% long-term revenue growth. Does that still hold?
Yeah, we have not changed the long- term because we think that that was an exceptional year. We're gonna, let's see how political kind of flows through this year. Our tech products are really still in incubation. So when I kind of look at... And the only thing that really is an element. So what's the one thing that changed in the growth story? It's the digital transformation. So I'm not prepared to say that was a long-term change. I'm prepared to say that that was a year of efficiency that's now gonna lead to a year of competition, and that's then gonna lead to a, like, five years of AI application. And so if that turns out to be the case, that's gonna fix the digital transformation side.
Our growth as a company will get us into larger and larger contracts, and our tech products by 2026 should switch from a drag to a lift on the company.
Got it. That's great. Shifting gears maybe a bit to retail media. You know, the rise in e-commerce and retail media post-pandemic has continued to alter ad budgets, and really investment priorities in the industry. Can you speak to where retail media fits into Stagwell's offerings?
... Sure. It again, it's part of our Assembly Gale media offering. It's also. We're also hired on the other side of that, where companies will hire us to structure their retail marketplaces or structure the content and flow of content so that they can maximize their return on the retail marketplaces.
Got it. When I look at your balance sheet, you're at about 2.5 times net debt to EBITDA. While relatively low, it's still higher than some of the other agency holding companies. How do you think about leverage, and ideally, what's your leverage target?
Sure. I mean, I, I think that when you compare us to those other companies, they're in a mature phase. When they were in our phase, they, they had our profile or, or higher because we're in a growth phase, and we still have to continue to get out there, finish the global marketplace, continue to invest in technology. I'm comfortable between two and three. I'd like... You know, if we don't do a major acquisition of sorts, I think it will-- And we do the disposition, I think it will edge to two or maybe slightly below or slightly above as a year-end, as a year-end target. But I'm also comfortable in two to three. I think what I said on the call is, the most important thing is achieving the vision of the company.
There's no point in getting to some low multiple like that if you're stinting the investment in what you really need to get to the next level of growth. So the most important thing is making those investments. On the other hand, we've been prudent buyers and kept things within what I would say is a comfortable range.
Got it. That's helpful. I guess we can open up to any audience Q&A. We have about five minutes left, if there are any questions.
Sure.
Thank you. Mark, on the political front, obviously, no primary season a little bit this year. Does that impact your advocacy business in any real way? And, you know, as you think about longer-term M&A, is this an area you'd like to get bigger in as a company, just given the trends in political seem to be, you know, hyper growth for many years to come?
Well, the funny thing is, when I did political work, I used to be somewhat frustrated because I would say: "They really spend more on marketing a hamburger than we do on all our politics." And now I can say: "They spend more on politics than hamburgers." So, of course, now that I got out of it personally, you know, I think our investment is good. I kind of look for international markets, you know, maybe, maybe the, the U.K., maybe... You know, where are the big democracies? The U.K., India. I'm happy with our position. I think it is a good complement to what we're doing, but our primary focus is on kind of the large-scale corporate and global accounts.
And so I don't, I don't see a diversion from that strategy, but I see us continuing. And political, and we call it advocacy because it also leads to a lot of public affairs. So outside of the actual campaign season, there's a lot of public affairs work. We've created something we call the Risk and Reputation Group. We, we've kind of incubated that for the last year or so, and now we're beginning to get our first, you know, big scale clients, where clients that have really large image problems, political or non-political, can hire a suite of Democrats, Republicans, investment advisors, and really tackle those problems. So I think you see the advocacy expertise manifest itself in several ways. And I'd like to take some of the political skills...
In fact, the other thing I did was always I would, I would go to the politicians and do things differently, and they would say: "Why should we do it that way?" And I'd say, "Well, that's 'cause AT&T does it that way." And then I'd go to AT&T and say, "Why should we do it?" "Well, President Clinton does it that way." And so I do think there's a cross-pollination of techniques, and I'd like to see that our, you know, our political fundraising kind of broaden out into nonprofit fundraising. I think that fundraising, people today are more involved, more willing to give, more willing to participate, more engaged, and, and I think that's the beneficial side of, of, of social media. And I think that's a very, important business to continue to expand in.
Great. Helpful. Maybe just on the Stagwell Marketing Cloud, can you provide a little bit of color on just, you know, what is it, what's been weighing on some of the growth recently, and then, where you see growth tailwinds in the business?
Well, I think the best news, again, that I said on the earnings call was that the Major League Baseball approved our ARound app. If I were just a standalone tech company, that would be like, you know, a major deal. So, you know, we came from idea, we built it. It's an augmented reality experience for baseball fans during the games. We tested it out in two teams. Our goal this year will be to get it in as many teams as we can, and next year, hopefully, we'll monetize it with sponsorships, though we're already working with Target on it. But so it's a series of products that's slightly different because it's a consumer experience. But most of the products are for marketing professionals themselves in the media, communications, and research area.
We found the communications market a little harder to sell to, even though our product keeps getting rated number one in several competitions. I think the research market, when we finish our Harris Quest suite of products, that not only gives you brand tracking, but gives you do-it-yourself survey research that you just type in and hours later, your survey is done and completed, and uses AI to analyze things and creates communities. I think that suite is gonna be a real one. When that suite is finished and released later this year, I think a year from now, you will see really significant sales. On the Harris brand part of it, which is automated tracking of your brand image, we have about 150 major corporate customers already, and the media division is a little bit behind.
We are still looking at whether or not we need acquisitions to really complete that suite of products.
Got it.
But I think when you look at the vision, those products serve as an internal tech backbone, but they're also available as freestanding products for brands and other agencies.
Thank you. That's helpful. Just my last question: In terms of talent management, you know, how does Stagwell attract and retain talent? What are you doing to foster a culture of innovation within the company?
Well, we just finished what we call a second round of the next generation, in which someone from virtually all the agencies who's not the CEO and, you know, not the CFO, whatever, but one or two layers down, you know, all come together and learn strategy, technology, all the latest things in marketing, and then get put to work on several client assignments, and takes about a week. And we're blowing that kind of next generation training program out there 'cause the. You know, if you think of the two hallmarks of what differentiates how we're building Stagwell, we're building Stagwell as a branded, internally expert branded set of expertise, but collaborative in nature. Rather than smushing agencies together, we'll leave you with the Harris Poll, but you gotta work with 72andSunny. How do they work together?
We bring you together to really work on assignments on a multidisciplinary basis. The second major plank is that we're, you know, we're tech first and should be early adopters of all technology, and that takes people. I think we've done a... You know, I think we have been a very attractive place for people to go. I think you've seen the founders all basically stay with it, who everybody thought would leave. But more importantly, I think you see the next generation of people coming in, taking their positions, and kind of learning the culture, and that is what is gonna be a long-term differentiator from other places I've been at.
That's great. Mark Penn, thank you so much.
Thank you.