Hey, everyone. Good afternoon. I'm Tejas Savant. I cover the life sciences here at Morgan Stanley. Before we begin, for important disclosures, please see the Morgan Stanley Research Disclosure website at morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures, and if you have any questions, do reach out to your Morgan Stanley sales rep, so it's my pleasure this afternoon to host Techne, on behalf of the company, we have Kim Kelderman, CEO, and Jim Hipple, CFO, so thanks so much for joining us, guys. Maybe, just to kick things off, Kim, you know, you're relatively new to the CEO seat, although you're not new to Techne.
You know, you took over from, I think, in February, it was, in 2024 , so can you talk a little bit about, you know, your strategic vision for Techne, your key learnings so far? What has surprised you to the upside, and where do you see the most room to improve?
First of all, thanks for having us at this great conference, and a great first question. Yeah, so yes, you're right. I've been with Bio-Techne over six and a half years and built the Diagnostics and Genomics segment by doubling the revenues and the headcount, as well as entering new spaces. The most important one, spatial biology, and diagnostics genomics, the liquid biopsy. The first nine months, I say nine because there was the COO transition, which kinda like already gave me a little bit of a head start in doing the assessment. Surprises to the upside is actually that the strategy is just very solid.
We have this 48-year in the making core business that has all the proteins and hundreds of thousands of antibodies in it, with which we go to market and usually outcompete in the market with these core reagents, the biological building blocks. However, we invested over the last decade or so in four different verticals. We call them growth pillars, and those are basically the proteomics analytics, you know, the ProteinSimple franchise. We have the spatial biology, cell and gene therapy, and the liquid biopsy verticals.
When I started, of course, I wanted to make sure that the verticals newer to me, that were in the Protein Sciences segment, that they are also based on very sound principles, where they utilize these high-margin core reagents, but that they go to market with very defensible, very high value proposition offerings. Fortunately, I was always thinking like, "Hey, if three out of four are, you know, really competitive, that would be great." You asked for a positive surprise.
We found and I've concluded that all four of these markets are real markets. Our offerings are really competitive, and yes, there's huge synergies with these core reagents that we have. That's the summary of my first six months.
Got it. Fair enough. Maybe, let's start with the recap of the most recent quarter. What played out differently compared to your initial expectations?
I think the quarter came more or less in line with our expectations and street expectations, right? $306 million in revenue, 1% growth was very much in the ballpark. We had, you know, earnings per share of $0.49, which was also right, right where we were pegged. And if I go back even a quarter or two, you've heard on the earnings calls that we talked about headwinds, three, namely, which were the, you know, the originally.
It was the destocking, and we had called that that would be over at the end of the calendar year, our second quarter, fiscal year. And we were right on that, and it totally turned, you know, like we had thought it would, and those headwinds abated. The other headwinds we talked about were China and the biopharma. Biopharma, biotech, end markets. And we had called that they would stabilize and that they would not get worse quarter over quarter, and they didn't. So they have been in a bottoming out process, and that resulted in our low single digit growth that we had forecasted.
And, you know, that was actually pretty much in line with how we saw it. We also knew that the Diagnostics and Genomics segment would do relatively well, and they did, with 9% growth, and then, 16% or 15% or 16%, if you would include inorganic L unaphore acquisition. And then, you know, there was a negative growth on the Protein Sciences segment and, you know, low single digits. And that was also in line with what we expect because that segment is very, very exposed to the biopharma as well as to the China markets.
Got it. Fair enough. So that's actually a good segue into my next couple of questions on end markets and geographies. So starting with, you know, biopharma, sounds like towards the end of the year, you saw some signs of improvement. Can you just elaborate on the trends that give you confidence that the end market is definitively stabilizing here? And maybe to set the stage, you know, 50% of your revenue is biopharma. So if you can just break it out between large cap pharma versus biotech, and within biotech, of course, you've got the emerging companies versus the more mature ones, that would be helpful.
Yeah, so I'll start with well, maybe I'll do the breakout first. So 50% of our revenues come from pharma. Biopharma, and that is 30%, 20%.
Okay
Of our total breakout. So that will give you the quantity of, or the impact that these markets have on our revenues. Your very first question was, what gives you confidence, right? So we've seen the bottoming out process, we've seen stable end markets. And the confidence really comes from internal markers as well as from, you know, the external data that we've seen.
Our very first quarter in the calendar year saw good funding going into the biopharma markets. Yes, it stepped down a little bit quarter- over- quarter, but still, if you look at the year-to-date funding levels compared to 2019 they're still 20% plus up. And then, yes, they're 40% up over 2023, but that was a very suppressed year, so we...
Right
Like to look back at 2019, pre-pandemic. Those are very healthy funding levels. In the meantime, we've seen that our instrument utilization, obviously, there was some pressure on instrumentation, CapEx spend, but the utilization of our instruments has been really, really good. We have had double-digit growth on the consumables that go on to those instruments for seven quarters in a row, and that means that our end markets are using our instruments a lot and more and more.
That gives us confidence that once the funding comes in, whether it's China or biopharma, you know, there is a demand or there is usage of our installed base. That means capacity is being used, and that means that additional capacity will be necessary, and that's what we're seeing as an internal driver for our optimism long term.
Got it. And you haven't sort of noticed any recent shift in spending trends from either large pharma or biotech, Kim? Is that a fair assessment? I mean, where I'm coming from is, you know, one of the large preclinical CROs out there recently called out a pretty deep sort of like softening, if you will, in June and July.
Yeah.
And of course, I mean, it's early discovery work that was impacted for them. But then more recently, another smaller CRO talked about a pickup in cancellations on the biotech side as well. So just curious as to whether that's percolating up through your channel conversations.
Yeah, I think that you know, we are actually more in the forefront, right? So we have you know, large part of our portfolio directly goes into biopharma and pharma end markets on the discovery side. Most of the time, or all the time, I should say, we book and ship within days. So we saw that weakness earlier in the time frame, so in the quarters before. So we believe that when we say stabilizing and scraping the bottom, that is already in there.
Fair enough. Switching to, you know, academic and government, in relatively stable, sort of low single digit market, you know, with expectations for that to continue going forward. But then on the other hand, you know, we do hear of concerns around, you know, the horizon budget cuts over in Europe as they pivot more towards defense spending. And then, you know, NIH growth is expected to be sort of flattish for fiscal 2025, especially, you know, once you adjust for inflation. Could you speak to the dynamics that make you sort of a little bit more optimistic on that end market?
Yeah, thanks for the question. There's various dynamics there that I'm a little bit more optimistic about, but the. By far, the most important one is that academic funding is still reasonably high. And secondly, it has been very tailored towards the, you know, infectious diseases, right, with the pandemic right in the pandemic and during the pandemic, after the pandemic. There was a lot of research and funding, therefore, flowing into understanding the virus, understanding vaccines, operating mechanisms. So, and we have, over the last half decade, conscientiously avoided the end markets of infectious diseases.
I think there are great opportunity, great companies. There was no reason for us to pile onto that end market. So we avoided it, and that meant during the pandemic, we were not one of the super high flyers. But it also means that after the pandemic, when funds and allocation of funds normalize back to neurology and oncology, that really is a tailwind for us. Because that's where our product lines are positioned, and that's where we believe that the allocation of funds will move towards.
Fair enough. Let's switch to China. Obviously, huge area of focus, you know, for you guys, but also just generally for everybody at the conference. You expect to see some benefit from stimulus there, although, you know, probably not until 2025. What's the latest you are hearing just around clarity, around the regional dispersal timelines, and priority areas of focus?
Yeah, so I could take a step back and just say that, yes, China has seen quite some headwinds from, you know, funding available for general research, just because a lot of it went to fighting the pandemic and managing the pandemic. Doesn't take away that China is very keen on providing fantastic healthcare to their population, and that they will continue to invest in furthering that, and life sciences will be important.
So that's why we are positioned, I believe, very well. There is a big effort in the cell and gene therapy, which we have a vertical market for. Our instrumentation is very much aligned with automating clunky manual processes.
Even in China, resources became more important. There's been, obviously, an inflation on salary, salary costs around the world. So headcount pressures and efficiencies are important, and our instrument portfolio is nicely aligned with that. We do believe that the four-year funding plan will be a stimulus to the end markets. We know that 21 states out of the 34 have submitted their requests for funding.
What we hear is that at the beginning of 2025 , those funds will be dispersed. We are a strong believer, like we saw the last time a program like this was implemented, that we will be a beneficiary of these funds.
Kim, just to put a finer point on that, are you confident that, you know, we start seeing order pickup sort of essentially in January next year, or was it a little bit later in the year? Just given what you said about the number of provinces that have, you know, submitted documentation for the dispersal of the funds. And what parts of your portfolio could see the most meaningful benefit once the dollars start, or I guess, the yuan start to flow?
Yeah. So, so I do think that, obviously, the instrumentation part of the portfolio, that's what the funds are earmarked for, right? For, a refresh of instrumentation modernization of the instrumentation. The nice thing is that, like I mentioned before, globally, but also in China, it has been true that our, the consumables related to these instruments have been growing double digits for seven quarters in a row. That means, capacity has been used up further of our installed base, and that means that if you want to progress your projects and/or start more projects, that you will want to add capacity to your testing fleet.
And as I mentioned, the efficiencies it brings are also of importance, right? To get reproducible results at a very cost-efficient price is a good selling proposition. And so I think the funding for instrumentation will immediately impact the instrumentation fleet. But then again, I also have the internal indicator that the utilization of our installed base has been growing double digits.
Got it. Fair enough. Are there pockets of excess capacity in China at all, Kim, in your opinion? And from a portfolio positioning standpoint, do you need to do anything differently to sort of fully benefit from the stimulus?
I do not believe that we have. As I mentioned earlier, there was no huge. We didn't have a huge position in the infectious diseases, so we did not have a huge bolus of sales in any particular, either consumable nor instrument. So I don't think we have excess capacity that we have to work through. In fact, it's the opposite.
I do believe, and I'm repeating myself a little bit, the efficiencies our instrumentations bring, the repeatability, but also the growth of these consumables indicate that we would benefit from the instruments. We don't have a huge capacity that we have to work through, and I don't think that there are other portfolio shifts that we need to do in order to benefit more from the funding.
Got it. Let's switch to the business segments. We'll start with the Protein Sciences side, specifically on the antibodies front. You know, there's been a bit of consolidation in that space recently, you know, Danaher and Abcam, PeproTech and Thermo. Has this impacted your market position? Are you noticing any sort of different market approaches from these companies, particularly in terms of, you know, discounting or bundling of solutions or things like that?
Yes, it's like we are keenly aware of these acquisitions, and we are also admirers of the Danaher organization, as well as the Thermo Fisher Scientific company that has done these really, really good acquisitions. Historically, we have competed with these product lines or these companies pre-acquisition, very successfully. And we're also holding our own while they're being part of these larger companies. I think we have a charm of being a mid-sized company in which we can benefit from not only a real solid scientific base internally.
We also have a very consultative selling team where if you are a customer that wants to solve a problem, and you want to detect a particular protein, what antibody should I use? Or if you wanna grow your cells, which protein should you use? So our team can really help you kickstart your project and shorten the timelines to success. Then again, once you know what antibody or which protein you wanna use, you wanna have an ease of ordering and a, you know, you wanna be reminded of our, you know, our agents frequently.
So many feet in the street, and the ease of order, is important, and that's obviously what the larger companies have. But that's also the obvious reason for us to sign the, the collaborations with Thermo Fisher for the Fisher Channel access.
Got it.
We have had a relationship for 10 years, very successfully in the U.S. And then, earlier this fiscal year, we've signed a... Sorry, earlier this calendar year, we signed an agreement to do a very similar, to have a very similar setup for Europe.
Got it
With the Fisher Channel. So that way, we have basically a little bit of both, right? Very, very high-tech sales force, consultative, and we have the reach. So we believe that having both of these position us really, really well to compete long term.
Fair enough. Wanna talk a little bit about cell and gene therapy. You know, you flagged it as an important growth vertical for you guys, but the market, you know, has grown a little bit slower than anticipated due to, you know, scrutiny around safety profiles and perhaps even limited approvals to date, and now there's this concern around pharma reprioritization towards larger indications due to the IRA, right? So how do you think about sort of the growth prospects here? Walk us through how the business performed in 2024 for you guys, and what is your expectation for cell and gene therapy in 2025?
Yeah, I think cell and gene therapy as such, as an end market, in spite of the IRA and other fluctuations in the end markets, the promise of cell and gene therapy of curing diseases that you would otherwise have never thought of, we would even have a significant influence on or positive impact on is just amazing. So, I do believe that cell and gene therapy is here to stay.
Now, just like with small molecules 30, 40 years ago, are there going to be, you know, clinical studies that fail, and are there going to be hiccups in the regulations and in approvals? Absolutely. Right? It's a nascent market. It's a new opportunity. So there will be the waves that come with that. However, I... You know, our positioning in cell and gene therapy is fantastic.
We have we have a great portfolio of reagents, and as you know, we have a fantastic portfolio in IO reagents, but we have ported the most important and most relevant ones over into our GMP facilities, and we have that for antibodies, GMP antibodies. We have GMP proteins a world-leading portfolio, and then we have GMP small molecules.
So with that portfolio, we can go to market, especially in the gene medicine, directly, and that's what our cell and gene therapy in-house team is doing a lot and has been growing. It's been growing mid-single digits for a year, and that's in very constrained environments. So we're usually having much higher expectations for that business under normal market conditions. And then, you know about our play with Wilson Wolf.
Yeah
In this G-Rex product line, which is obviously a bioreactor or small disposable bioreactor, which allows oxygen to get to the cells really quickly, which is a patented method to grow your T cells much faster and more efficient. And to do so, you would need, you know, GMP proteins, and you would need ingredients that come out of our core, high-margin core portfolio. So also there, we see this tremendous symbiosis.
The Wilson Wolf G-Rex is in 45% of all clinical trials, is very very scalable, very nifty solution to growing your cells. And then, it's the last four approvals of cell and gene therapies, or in this case, cell therapies, have been done while using the G-Rex solution. So we have very high expectations of the product line, and we know that the same principle there holds true as well. Because it's this time not an instrument but a disposable that still pulls through our core reagent.
Got it. Switching to, you know, proteomic instrumentation, you know, I think it was at your investor day last year that you talked about, you know, strong double-digit momentum in the installed base. I think it was in that 2019 to 2023 period, right? Now, obviously, right now, with the macro factors at play, it, it's gonna be short of that, but do you think you can get back to that sort of strong double-digit growth in the installed base?
And then just double-clicking, you know, one level deeper, I think you've got the Leo system coming up in July. You've got, you know, I think Ella, which did really well for you, double-digit growth, this quarter as well. So just contextualize the new launches and the upcoming launch, I guess, for Leo and just the broader portfolio growth.
Yeah. So I'm really glad to see that we have some major launches that come into this, the Protein Sciences or the protein analytics. Earlier this year, we announced the Maurice Flex, right, which is a, you know, updated version of the Maurice. But it allows for fractionation capabilities, and so the CE will fractionate your sample, but it allows you to immediately put it on to mass spec, right?
That's, again, in line with simple and automated. That's a huge benefit, and will continue to drive the adoption of the Maurice in biologics and MauriceFlex, in this case. You know, in line with our customer feedback, we had obviously fantastic results in Western Blot, automated Western Blotting, and that's why we announced the Leo. Leo gives you fantastic flexibility.
You can run anywhere between 25 to 100 samples, with up to eight markers per sample, in a very fast throughput and in a very automated, consistent, repeatable way, in line with you know, the demand of biopharma and specifically larger pharma. We announced this instrument so that larger pharma can budget for it properly, and we will launch it at the beginning of the calendar year.
I think that will continue to drive, you know, novel capabilities in the portfolio. In the meantime, we have also made sure that there are continuous release of new applications in new fields and different fields for all four of our instrument lines. Overall, we've seen... We are a strong believer that automation as well as proteomics are mega trends. Our product lines within ProteinSimple are aligned with those, and we believe that we can get back to a historical growth. And as I've already mentioned t he consumables on these instruments already have been growing double digits.
Right.
Right? So there's no reason why those wouldn't align.
Perfect. That was actually my next question. I think seven quarters of double-digit growth on the consumable side. Switching to Diagnostics and Genomics, Kim, you know, home base for you. So let's start with Lunaphore. You know, many of your spatial peers are seeing instrument weakness, and you're actually seeing pretty robust uptake. What are the key factors that could explain this divergence, if you will? And just walk us through the differentiation for COMET versus other spatial platforms in the market. Who do you run into most often in head-to-heads?
Yeah. So first of all, I, you know, thanks for mentioning the Lunaphore acquisition. We closed it a little bit over a year ago, and integration has gone really, really well. Fantastic team, and a fantastic instrument, right? So I think, of course, higher funding levels will always boost adoption of a new platform. But there's no doubt that spatial biology, in general, is a very up-and-coming, very important aspect. To see what is happening where in pathology is very important.
You know, a couple of reasons why I think we are doing really well. One is we're earlier in the adoption cycle, so, you know, obviously, you know, a very different base that we're starting from, right? So we're, we just launched this instrument two, three quarters ago.
But the real reason is, in my mind, that it's incredibly competitive, right? It's one of the few systems that can run four samples at the same time. It's fully automated from staining all the way to imaging. You can run it overnight. So if you run it overnight and you do four samples, you can do 20 a week or so, which is far outpacing any competitive solution. And then another, you know, unique in the world aspect is that it can truly do on the same slide multiomics, right? And we believe that many of our customers always ask, like: Is there a way that we can see the translation of.
Yeah
You know, there's an RNA, did this RNA indeed express into a protein? Or the other way around, we have a microRNA, did it block the creation of certain proteins o r protein, overproduction of certain proteins? The regulation there and seeing the biological pathway is just a very unique. And we just launched a solution where you can see 12 RNA targets with RNAscope.
Yeah.
We have 50,000 different probes, and we can make any custom probe you'd want. We also have, you know, in this assay, 24 biological targets for proteins. That's true multiomics, and with all the other benefits I just mentioned, I'm not surprised that there is a very healthy demand for the Comet right now.
Got it. So two follow-ups there. I mean, it's a tough time from a macro perspective to be launching a new instrument. So what's the pricing environment like? Are you having to sort of essentially prioritize feeding the installed base at this stage of your journey, given that, you know, you're relatively early in the installed base sort of phase? And second, any color you can share and just the feedback you've got on that multiomic launch so far, has adding this feature opened up conversations with new customers already?
Yeah, I think the pricing environment is actually really robust for us right now, and that's because we can be you know, relatively selective. We are we have talked publicly about our demand outstripping our capacity. Now, we're working hard on reversing that and making sure that our capacity is at a level where we can keep up and/or even be able to overdeliver compared to demand. And that is happening right this quarter, where those lines should cross.
But on the other hand, there's a tremendous value in the COMET itself, so we didn't see the. We do not see the need to reduce pricing right now. Historically, pre-COMET, pre-commercial, we had several early, you know, early feedback customers with-
Yeah
With, you know, with an earlier revision of the instrument. There, we had to make sure that we entice customers to use it.
Right
Share the data.
Right.
And they got a much better deal on the Comet once it became commercial. But for just, normal sales not the early adopters, key opinion leaders, but the normal sales have all been within the ranges that we expect. Actually a little higher than we've expected that we could hold.
Got it. Are the supply constraints now largely behind you, and over what sort of period do you expect to work down the instrument backlog?
Yeah. As I mentioned, the lines of capacity and demand are in process of, you know, crossing each other during this quarter, and I would expect another quarter or so to work back the work.
Yeah
Work down the backlog, and we should be. Of course, it depends on, you know, how the market, like, how the markets are going to develop. But we should be, according to our projections, into normal zone between those two in the back half of our fiscal year.
Got it. Would the entry of a, you know, large sequencing vendor like Illumina into the spatial biology niche, impact how you think about positioning for Comet? Or is that really a, a problem for the DNA barcoding-based approaches out there?
I think the latter. I'm really happy to see that, you know, first of all, that people are agreeing that understanding what genetically happens where is indeed an equation to be solved. If you think about tissue and in situ, you know, what happens where in a tissue, in pathology, that is, you know, something that eventually people will come to.
And you know, there's the discovery phase, where you would like to see which markers and what happens in biology. But then, if you wanna see what happens where, with repeatable, high specificity, automated solutions, you know, we're always welcoming our customers in that phase. And then we have you know, the best solution. We have 400,000 antibodies, 50,000 RNA targets, and a fantastic instrument, as I mentioned already.
But then again, we've also proven with our customers that we can get closer to clinical studies and actually into the clinic with our HPV probes for human papillomavirus, and have a, you know, IVDR, IVDD approval. Correct, IVDR approval on our HPV probes in Europe. And it just shows the technology can have the consistency and reproducibility, and is designed under 13485 , so that it can make its way into the clinic, which is super important for, of course, for pathology and the pathologist as such.
Got it. Switching to molecular diagnostics, you know, Asuragen has been a really nice growth driver for you. Got some exciting launches in the hopper as well. I think you've got an ESR1 mutation kit and then expanded carrier screening. Can you just talk about the opportunity you see for these products?
Of course. Well, you know, our original acquisition of Exosome DX was based upon the, the, you know, the platform where we believe exosomes, the little bubbles that come out of cells, early. Even early in disease states, you see abundance of these exosomes. They have very high-quality information, so interrogating those will give you, we believe, superior results over cell-free DNA or circulating tumor cells. So that is the modality we've been using. In the meantime, we do believe that, you know, a kitted solution that we distribute to labs, laboratories, is more scalable.
And that's why we basically had the Asuragen acquisition, right? They brought a laboratory channel, and that team has the capability of creating really repeatable results in kitted solutions. So now the ESR1 that you just mentioned will come out in the coming quarter. It will have the combination of being exosome-based and it is a kitted solution, so that we can distribute it through our laboratory channel. So it's basically the first child from both parents of the Exosome Diagnostics as well as the Asuragen pipeline. So we're really happy to see that that is the first assay to come out.
That doesn't take away, and we are very excited about future assays, but that doesn't take away that both these entities and what they originally did. So the genetic testing from Asuragen, as well as the ExoDx Prostate Test, both have been growing very nicely as well. So we, we're quite pleased with both independently, and we're now very excited about the first combination products.
Got it. You know, you've guided to sort of low- to mid-single-digit growth in the first half of 2025 and high single-digit in the back half. Now, knowing that your fiscal year is off by six months versus everybody else, a lot of your peers are speaking of sort of mid-single-digit growth next year, right? And so the question we often get is, at least for calendar 2025, do you think Bio-Techne can grow at sort of somewhere in that, you know, low teens range, given how you've historically performed?
Thanks for acknowledging that we're the first company to stick our neck out, officially stick our neck out for 2025. And yeah, I'm certain I've heard some of the soundbites from some of the companies talking about, you know, recovery in 2025, and I'm not here to just dispute that or concur with that. I think, you know, wait till we have to actually officially come out with guidance, and we'll see what they have to say. I hope that they are betting on a recovery. There are, you know, a lot bigger companies that have a lot greater visibility than we do. But having said that, we had to put a plan together.
And the good news, we were putting a plan together based on a recovery and not trying to catch a falling knife of when's the deceleration of growth gonna stop. And that was very encouraging after two years of trying to do that and frankly, failing, not just us, but I think the entire industry. And, you know, 2024 was a year of consistency and stabilization.
We grew 1% for the year, we grew 1% from Q4, and there wasn't a whole lot of variation throughout the year, so that's good news. Now the question is, when does it recover and how does it recover? We had to look at our key end markets, biotech, China, and big pharma, 'cause those are the three that have been pressured. Our view was, right now, as of our last earnings call in August, there wasn't any material change in our run rates.
So we've been at low single-digit growth. We figure we'll continue with low single-digit growth out of the gate. But what could get us to the low end of mid-single-digit growth would be a biotech recovery. We've seen the biotech funding we haven't seen the spending yet, but that should be coming.
We expect by December quarter, we should start to see some of that. Follow on the following quarter, Kim already talked a lot about China and our expectations there, and we do believe that in the early part of our Q3, we'll start to see the China stimulus hit. That should get us into the upper range of the mid-single digits, let's say. And the last, but most ambiguous, is big pharma.
There's no external data I can point to, to say, "This is why we think they'll recover," except to say that it's been a very tough year for big pharma in terms of rebaselining their year and the uncertainty that was there around IRA and around the macroeconomic times back in November and October, when they were doing their budgets for this year. I think there's a lot more clarity now, I think a lot more reason for them to feel optimistic, but we got to wait for the next budget cycle for that to kick in.
And, our view is that, you know, by the time their boards approve it and it gets assimilated down deep in the organization, we'll start to see that recovery in our numbers in the June quarter, and that gets us to the high single digits. The only reason why I'm not saying double digits yet is because that would imply a full market recovery by June of 2025 , and I'm not sticking my neck out that far. But I do believe that, you know, hopeful that by the end of the calendar year, we'll be back to a full recovery, and at that point in time, we'll be back at double digit growth.
Perfect. So that's a great place to leave it at. Thank you both for doing this.
Thanks so much.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Yeah, of course.