Excellent. Light's green, so I guess we're going to get started. Thanks everyone for joining us today. My name is Scott Berg. I lead our enterprise software and SaaS research efforts here at Needham. Thanks for joining our 19th Annual Technology, Media, and Consumer Conference. With us today we have Grant Freeman, President of Thryv. Welcome.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Sounds like your day is busy. That, hopefully, is a good thing for you.
Thought you at least got a break here, but it's good that we didn't.
No rest for the weary, I guess, or something like that. I guess to start off, how about giving an overview of Thryv for those that may be less familiar with the company?
Sure. So, I would start out by saying that first and foremost, we're a business that's absolutely dedicated to the success of small businesses around the globe. We have an intimate knowledge of these businesses. It's all many of us have ever worked with, so we get them, we understand them, and we build products that serve the needs that they have. As a business specifically, we're, we're sort of, a-at the tail end of a transformation to becoming a SaaS company, a profitable one at that, and we're accelerating toward that point. Majority SaaS revenue is really important to us, as we spoke about before, and sort of crossing that chasm from being less marketing services revenue to, to more, SaaS revenue. We have some really distinct and unique competitive advantages that some of you in the audience as I look around already know about.
Because of our, our traditional business, the marketing services business, we have 315,000 customers that we affectionately refer to as our Zoo. We hunt in our Zoo to find SaaS clients, so people that are buying digital marketing services or printed media, that we have trusted relationships with, garnered over the course of many decades, who are now looking to evolve their business and, move into cloud-based tools and technology in a way from sort of Post-it notes and Excel spreadsheets, understanding the need to have things like a CRM, like appointment scheduling, like, marketing attribution tools, communication tools, etc. We're the ones that they really turn to for that, as we've been their trusted advisors for a very, very long time.
As the needs of their business, given the economic environment, sort of transitioned through the years from printed media to digital spend, and now to software, we're always there for them, and we're really proud of that, so.
Great. Well, I'm going to spend, I think, basically all my questions, but two, on the software SaaS side of the business, because that's the growth engine and that's where the company's obviously going. But on the legacy Marketing Services business, I think most investors are surprised that the Yellow Pages are still around out there to some extent, right? Because I don't see them very often. But when we look at that business, in Marketing Services more than that, there are some other digital services in there. But when we look at that business, the rate of decay on that over the last couple of years has been kind of in that 20% annual range. Last couple of quarters it's been 24%. Since Q1 call, the question I probably had most frequently is, what's the right way to think about that rate of decay going forward?
Is it just, is it accelerating a little bit from 20% a year? Is this like a one-time, you know, event the last quarter or two? Or, you know, what does that look like if, if we're thinking maybe three to five years out?
Well, I don't know if we see anything far more dire than that. As you know, it's been kind of like a metronome. It's been steady. It's been consistent. It's been easily measurable. Has it accelerated a little bit? Yes, it has. Nobody ever thought the Yellow Pages were going to make a comeback, by the way, so we have been prepared for this day. Look, it is still highly profitable, as you know. But I think what's most important to realize is we have an excellent track record of rationalizing the costs. So there's levers that we can pull for things like print, distribution. You know, we do a great job right now of understanding who should get the book and who doesn't. I'll bet none of you get the book because we target people 65 and older. We mail them the book.
We have no waste. We reduce print and distribution costs by only sending it to people that use it. So really intelligently understanding who's using the book, sending it to them so you don't have a degradation of the call counts or the value to our customers coming from the book, but you save money, from a cost standpoint through printing and distributing less. So I would say we're anticipating the decline. I think the 23%-24% that you've seen more recently feels about right for now. We don't have things from the front lines coming in saying, "Oh my gosh, everybody's canceling. Everybody wants out," but I think it was just a natural acceleration. As far as, you know, the phone book in general, there are still pockets of this country that don't have broadband prevalent.
And we always joke that Manhattan, Kansas gets usage, but Manhattan, New York, you would never see a book. We don't distribute them at all here. So, you know, I think, a lot of the cash flow questions that do come up are really derived out of concern for what we just rid ourselves of, which was sort of that short-term debt maturity, that was coming. And with the refinance now, as you know, that's been pushed to 2029, which is fantastic. It also offers us more liquidity, as you know, Scott. We now have a 50% sweep instead of a 100% sweep, which is very advantageous for many reasons. And I think that, you know, that coupled with, you know, the ability to rationalize the cost of print moving forward, we're really confident that we're not going to be in a bind.
Okay. So my natural follow-up to that, we were just kind of briefly discussing this outside, right, is it's more around the concern around your ability to meet the debt payments, the requirements, is you're right, the sweep's a 50% now. It's, I think, $54 million annually the next two years, and then there's a step down after that. But if the rate of decay is too quick, how do we think about the, what is it, $250 million worth of debt out there? But it sounds like you're not worried about, you know, kind of paying that down the next couple of years. You can pay more if you want, but you certainly don't have to.
I was going to say, I think we have a track record that proves that we will pay more than is asked of us. We've traditionally done that, and I don't really see that slowing down. As far as cash flow, we're looking for that to increase in the near term through rationalizing the costs on the marketing services side, sunsetting a whole bunch of systems as we upgrade customers from digital marketing services to the SaaS platform, which means we save on systems, on people, and on all kinds of other waste that come along with it. So there's still plenty of rationalization that can happen on that side of the business.
Okay. Now we're going to move to the fun forward-looking side. At least that's.
SaaS part?
I call it the fun forward-looking side.
Yeah, definitely more fun than the Yellow Pages.
So, I remember the Analyst Day two years ago, the company unveiled its new Command Center strategy.
Yes.
Since then, we've seen two new centers come out, Marketing Center and Command Center, in addition to the Business Center that's out there. But to this point, what sort of learnings have you garnered from the center strategy early that can really help propel, maybe even better execution here going forward, both from the product and then from the sales perspective?
Yeah, absolutely. So I think first and foremost, we'll talk about Marketing Center, which really was released to the broader market in August of 2023. It is absolutely flying off the shelves. It's a darling of our salespeople, and it really has shown us that the conversation about marketing and growing your business and lead generation with the small business is one that's far easier to get than where we started, which was with Business Center, which was overhauling how you run your business, keeping a digital client list instead of an Excel spreadsheet. And in retrospect, you think, "God, I wish we had started there." However, a lot of the tools that are in Marketing Center now, because we're asked that a lot, Scott, weren't available six, seven, or eight years ago. It wouldn't have made it as valuable to our clients as it is now.
but I think that, as an entry point, I mean, the Marketing Center sales are flying past Business Center sales, and Business Center has been with us for nine years now. So it's really good to see the take rate, and the excitement about Marketing Center, because what that opens up to us, in addition to a whole new gateway or door into our platform ecosystem, it also leaves us with the 50-55,000 business centers that we have, the ability to have a viable marketing product to attach to those. And you know, one of the things that we spoke about on the earnings call, after Q1 was a metric that we're following closely now, which we believe is a massive leading indicator of future growth and trajectory of the software business.
That's the percentage of our clients that buy two or more centers, which has gone really from 1% to now 8% and is growing, as we have the ability to not only sell people in the existing non-SaaS Zoo Marketing Center as a lower barrier to entry than trying to get them to overhaul their business operations, but also looking in our SaaS Zoo of almost 70,000 customers going around to them and adding a second center, which obviously both of those motions are pretty affordable from an acquisition standpoint.
What I heard in there in particular was you didn't use the word entry point, but I'll use the word entry point, is customers can actually land on the Thryv platform in something besides Business Center. They're coming in with marketing. Are they also coming in with command? Because I've kind of seen this playbook a couple of times. It's not just always this one. If you can expand that opportunity, the cross-sell and the consistency of the business certainly improves.
That's absolutely true. So, let's talk about entry points. Command Center is our freemium offering. It's our first foray into a PLG motion. We've had a very successful sales-led growth motion, which has catapulted us to exiting this year with somewhere around $328 million of profitable SaaS revenue. But we want to grow exponentially. So we've seen, to your point, others have done this, like HubSpot, who offer a freemium, a free-for-life tool that is of tremendous value to small business owners. Ours is Command Center. It helps them streamline their communications. So if you think about all of our worlds and how your friends reach out to you, sometimes it's, it's, Facebook Messenger, sometimes it's Instagram Messenger. You might have a couple of different email addresses, etc.
This software takes those and aggregates all those into one centralized communication stream, regardless of the channel that your customer or prospect reaches out to you on. So it's really easy then for small businesses to not miss a message because they didn't check one of those social vehicles, which happens a lot. This solves that problem, in addition to offering them sort of a Slack light, if you will, for their business where they can communicate for free with up to five of their staff members, send photos back and forth, fun Bitmojis, etc., but most importantly, help them increase their effectiveness and efficiency in their workplace. So, we do have people coming in with that two main ways. The first is through a digital acquisition.
When we turned the spigot on, so to speak, we were really happy to see that all the research was right, and there was a strong demand for a tool like this that simplifies a small business's ability to communicate with each other and with their customers and prospects. And then we were also extremely happy to see the signup flow took under eight seconds to be signed up and dumped right in, which customers really appreciated. So, we now have that in the tens of thousands, as a freemium motion. In addition to using it the second way is our actual local sales reps, of which we have 850 across the globe that are interwoven sort of into the fabric of the communities that they serve and trusted by the business owners there. They now don't have to waste a conversation.
If somebody's not ready for a demo or to buy one of the higher-ticket items, they at least leave them with this freemium, take 10 minutes and engage them in it, hook up some of their channels, they get three for free, and then it's gated after that for easy upsell. What they're doing is effectively building their own micro zoo, if you will. We have many local reps that now have 100-plus of these that they can go back to every month and then expand their spend further into Marketing Center or Business Center. So that's been a fantastic entry point, in addition to Marketing Center, which you just mentioned.
By the way, from a housekeeping perspective, you can tell it's my first one I've done today. It's 3:00 P.M., I know. We will take Q&A at the end. If there are any questions from the audience, feel free to hold them to the end, and we will take them at that time. From the Marketing Center perspective, one of the things I think that is interesting is that application has given your Marketing Center customers, or at least some of them, an avenue to a more fully featured, you know, obviously different offering on the SaaS side. And we've seen customer acquisition for your SaaS platform as a whole tick up the last couple of quarters.
Yep.
For lack of a better term, kind of got the product right after being in the market for a couple of quarters to meet that need. Can you talk about, you know, what that, you know, advantage looks like? And maybe easy is maybe not the right word because nothing's easy, but how easy is it to sell into those marketing service customers?
No, it's a great question. We have droves and droves of customers on the marketing services side that have one or more of our digital product offerings. And when you think about it, this motion is no different than most SaaS companies, where you sunset something older and give something newer and better and faster and slicker to your customers. That is what we're doing as we upgrade thousands of people from our marketing services platforms over to the SaaS platform. And our value statement or commitment to them is they will get a value that's commensurate with what they had on the digital marketing services side, plus access to all of these tools. So we have a really solid, simple motion where now, Scott, we can do it without a human.
We use, you know, 30-60 days of tech touch leading up to the upgrade of a customer, celebrating the fact that they're going to get everything they had, plus more, yay, in a platform that is going to receive further investment and growth. And we're able to move whereas it used to be one at a time, now you can move thousands, and at the same time, not degrade the client experience at all or the engagement metrics that go with the usage of Marketing Center. So that's been really cool to answer you. Very simple to move them, and no pushback from customers because they're getting something better, and they're getting it initially at the rate that they were spending on the older thing on the other side. And then we will intelligently increase the rate over time to get them to rack rate.
I remember when I got a demo of the Command Center application last year.
Yep.
I think it was in August when you're showing it to the street here, at least. It's one of the things I picked up on initially I thought was kind of cool is I'm going to get the title wrong, but it was like an app center where in Command Center, you could go in and actually buy.
The Marketplace.
Yeah, maybe that's what it was, Marketplace. You could buy other Thryv apps directly from that. And I hadn't seen that in the other modules before. And you could also buy connectors and other things that were in there. Have you seen customers on that, you know, solution actually use that? Because I thought it was a great way to drive some RPU growth because it really made or simplified, I should say, that purchasing process.
Yeah, we have, but not in the millions yet, by any stretch of the imagination. I think that PLG is a new motion to us, speaking honestly. And it's something that it takes time to get perfect. What we have seen are people inside Command Center clicking and asking for a demo on Business Center or Marketing Center. They just want further information. You got to remember that this subset of clients that we're dealing with, they're not all digitally savvy. So they do like another human to explain things to them a lot. We have seen some uptake, though, on people, for example, activating Thryv Pay and doing a DIY website through there, which has been fantastic. But until we get the motion right, we're not spending heavily on driving people there.
We're working on in-app messaging, on making the actual upgrade process as seamless as possible. So yes, we're making ground there, but by no means are we where we want to be on it.
Okay. The metric you gave, you mentioned earlier, 8% of your SaaS customers have more than one,
Paid center.
Yeah, paid center today. Is it only three, you know, three centers today? But is there a combination you've seen most? I'm sure I can probably guess what it is, but.
Business Center and Marketing Center.
That's what I figured.
Yep.
Okay.
Yep. And I think we're getting what we're doing right now, we were already very good at the motion of going to our Business Center customers and convincing them to grow their business by adding Marketing Center. And by the way, when you add it, it's fantastic from a net revenue retention standpoint because the lowest-priced Business Center, if they had it, was $199. The lowest-priced Marketing Center is $199. So that's pretty good. And that's been sort of driving the net dollar retention closer to 100%, which is where we want to get.
What we're working on now, and had a key external hire, is really just the entire go-to-market picture, the implementation of tools and technology like Salesloft, like propensity modeling, to understanding when to approach, for example, our new Marketing Center, clients that entered our ecosystem via Marketing Center, understand how they engage, when they engage, longevity, when do we approach them at our Business Center, what do we say and why based on vertical, size of business, firmographic information, etc. So we're working on those motions. But yeah, it's definitely going well ahead of expectations.
I think you're cheating. You're looking at my next questions.
I can't read that.
I know you can't.
I'm getting old.
Because it would happen to be on go-to-market here. So that's a good segue. How are you incentivizing your salespeople to effectively sell the SaaS platform as a whole, but then also cross-sell? You kind of talked about the strategies you're working through a little bit. But, I would imagine for the hundreds of reps that you have, especially with the marketing services in a, you know, in a state of decay, you probably have to refocus and move their efforts even more. How do you incentivize them properly to start doing all that?
Yeah, so you take a look at the different levels of the compensation plan. You try to understand what's critical for the business. One of those things, for example, are, you know, getting our SaaS margins consistently above 70% and the gross SaaS margins into the mid-70s. That's going to mean we need to sell more of our high-margin product, which are our centers of Command Center, Business Center, and Marketing Center. So the compensation plan changed to drive them towards selling more of those, where they get more incented and more celebrated the more centers they sell. And then, there is a revenue per customer component, obviously, which would drive them to want to sell multiple centers to those customers. So, we were really excited with the compensation changes. And, we didn't have some mass uproar or defection or disturbance. We've been doing very well with those changes.
B, it drives higher-margin sales. C, our local sales force is really, really excited about it. You don't have to convince them that it's more fun to sell software than Yellow Pages. It's actually a pretty compelling argument. Nobody wants to go to, like, the holiday dinner with the family and say that they're selling space and phone books.
I'm just trying to imagine how that conversation would go.
Not well.
That would be a little comical, I think, today. So I was, for some reason, thinking back to the comment you made earlier about phone books, not showing up in Manhattan, New York, but they'll show up in Manhattan, Kansas.
Yes.
I think it was Kansas, at least. Is how do you think about selling the SaaS platform today on a just on a geographical region? Is it if you look at the U.S. or North America broadly, are there areas where the platform has maybe resonated better than others?
We love sort of tier two and tier three cities. You know, obviously, there's a high level of saturation in a Los Angeles or San Francisco or a Manhattan. But when you go to, like, let's say, a Nashville, a Louisville, suburbs of Chicago, the state of Florida, some of those, you know, Jacksonville areas, Tampa area, etc., those are really fertile hunting grounds for us. We have a high level of success in those areas, the places that are sort of awakening to the fact that they need to increase their digital aptitude, they need to adopt tools because others around them are just starting to. It's more of a first-mover advantage in those type markets than it is in the bigger metro areas.
Okay. On the macro perspective, I've talked about how software has kind of been in a macro recession in general, especially relative to the rest of the kind of the markets, at least for the last two years, plus or minus. We've seen overall demand in software certainly be less than what it was maybe in 2021. But the SMB has probably been hurt disproportionately a little bit. Small businesses just a little bit more concerned about their, you know, not knowing where their business is going in this macro. But as I look at your metrics relative to some of the other vendors I cover that are SMB-focused, your sales metrics have, in general, held up better. Is there something particular about the Thryv platform, you know, the new SaaS platform that you have that's maybe holding up better?
Because you sell to micro customers, not even just small customers. Micro.
Sure. Absolutely. It's a great question. It's part of our secret sauce. Our clientele are simply far more resilient to economic impact than the typical, just broader small business. What do I mean by that? We deal with dirty businesses, not a whole lot of white-collar. We have 50% of our clients are, people like roofers, plumbers, service-based contractors, service industry, right? There are people that if you have a leaky roof, you're calling a roofer. If you have a clogged toilet, you're calling a plumber. You just find a way to afford it because you have to. Even things like dentists, veterinarians, and attorneys, which are the other subsets that we sell a lot of, these are services that you simply need. So they're a little bit more resilient to economic impact.
I will say, Scott, I talk to customers on a monthly basis. You know that my boss does. Our new CPO has spoken to a customer every day for over three weeks now. And what you're going to find is we actually don't hear that a lot. We don't hear, "I don't think I can afford that. I'm worried about the future." The customers that we serve are not saying that to us. And this has been a question that's come up all day. And I think the metrics and the results and the performance and the growth that you'll see both from subcount and revenue are just because the clients that we serve are not, right now, as worried as sort of the broader SMB market appears to be by the data that's shared by people. We just simply don't hear it.
Okay. So I've got a long two-part question, but you'll see where I'm going with it in a second.
Can I take notes?
Well, here. Here you go. Just kidding. So I didn't ask a question about product strategy. You released three centers today or two new ones in addition to Business Center. Do we think about the company releasing a new center per year? Because I know that was communicated before.
Absolutely.
That's still the same thing.
Still on course for that, yeah.
Okay. So we've got one per year coming, and whatever that kind of final number or platform looks like, when you get to four, five, or six modules, we'll just throw that number out there because it's, you know, about, it's a couple more down the line. How much of that sales strategy can be product-led growth? And how much can it be more inside salespeople that you got to start splitting up around maybe even net new versus cross-sell expansion opportunity? Because I just think about the complexity is that small business, if they're buying three or four centers, it's a very different motion, even if you're buying it online. For one, once you get to two or three, sometimes you need some help with that.
No, absolutely. I think that we're always looking at how we service and onboard our clients, especially, and at what point do they need help? We'll just have to continue to study that. Obviously, our preference would be to do more via tech touch, via videos, via self-learning and education and pathing of that nature, in-app messaging, sort of WalkMe programs inside the software to help guide them without a human. But given the micro small businesses that we serve, some of them do need human help. Now, right now, for example, we give it to them when they buy a Business Center, but they pay for it. They pay $250 onboarding fees so they can have a couple of conversations with somebody to onboard them. So there's no real loss to us there.
I do think specialization is something that could definitely occur, especially if you think about some of the other needs that small businesses have, things like payroll, timekeeping, other things that we could get into the realm of. That's a special skill set, you know? And we'll probably have to look into that, who approaches whom and when and why. But that's also why we've been so focused on evolving the go-to-market, because it is going to train change drastically over the course of the years. As far as a PLG motion, you know, we see a lot of that as more their first entrance into the platform, meaning they're looking for communication tools.
They're looking for something that Command Center solves, coming in that way and then building a vast blue ocean, if you will, of eventually millions of engaged Command Centers and only contacting the ones with humans that are really highly engaged users that are poking around the marketplace but haven't purchased yet, just some really intelligent targeting of those clients. I think it'll be interesting to see how many would self-upgrade to a Business Center or to a Marketing Center. Hopefully, they will. We're focused on that. But if they don't, we're very lucky to have a lot of good salespeople inside and premise that can reach out at the right moment.
How do we think about that process and maybe your success rate within Australia? Because you all bought a business down there. And forgive me because I don't remember the name of the business. But it's very much.
Sense.
Sensis. That's, that's right. But it's very much a marketing services business.
Yes.
Fits obviously in that category. Have you had similar successes in that region, both on the sales and, and what the product side looks like? Or do they adopt differently?
No, we're crushing it in Australia. We definitely have first-mover advantage there. There is not a saturated SaaS market for SMBs. It's not even that saturated in the U.S., but it's more saturated here than it is there, certainly. A lot of the people that we talk to about our all-in-one solution and things like scheduling and marketing and CRM and billing and estimates and invoices and social really resonates with them. And most of them, at best, have been on a single-point solution. Like a Mailchimp would be the state of their evolution right now. So when they hear and understand that there's actually software that is more holistic in nature, that is catered to just their needs, they're extremely excited to say, "Well, let me try more." It's been a really, really good market.
Actually, on a per unit, per head basis, they're leading versus any of the other countries as well right now. But again, I think it's the right time and place there. They seem to be two-three years behind in digital adoption, especially of business tools. But now it's really come in good this year, and it's very exciting.
Very similar to Europe. They tend to be a couple of years behind.
Yeah.
Not surprising, I guess.
We've got New Zealand too. And that we're thinking that's a couple of years behind Australia, so.
Oh, boy. At least it's not a decade.
That's right.
Last kind of question around all that is, have you found a natural pain point that might get a marketing services customer to make that move, in particular over to your SaaS solutions?
So, to get a somebody from the traditional side of the business, from the older side of the business.
Yeah, yeah. Just a pain point or a catalyst that, you know, what's, you know, light bulb comes on and say, "Hey, I actually have to get there outside of just a rep calling them up.
Yeah. I would say that from again, we're doing a lot of it proactively. So we're understanding the product that they have now on the old side of the business, and we're figuring out which product on the SaaS side could give them a value commensurate with what they had over there, plus more tools. And we're proactively moving them, without a choice, right? So that, that's an important piece. So moving them over, and we're doing it for them, not to them, which is why we're not getting pushback or mass defection or anything. They're grateful to spend the same they were spending on the other side and get all of these advanced tools. So as far as, like, the pain point is just growth.
For us, it's if we can enable growth more on the SaaS platform than we could on the digital marketing services side, you know, then that should be a really good thing for us to do for our customers.
Okay.
But now the catalyst to buy Business Center I don't think we've even announced this to anybody yet. But, a study that we just completed, as far as, you know, why would somebody with a Marketing Center want to buy a Business Center? We're saving small businesses 20 hours a week with the efficiency that Business Center can bring, with light AI and automation, which for those of you that know small business, that's a fricking game changer for them because they're the CIO, the CMO, the CRO, the CEO. They're every C-suite, the one, the one, the one person that's in charge of that company. So saving them 20 hours is absolutely amazing. And that's a big pain point as far as attaching Business Center to the Marketing Centers that are coming in right now.
When does that press release go out? My guess is here pretty quickly.
We'll coordinate with you.
All right. Sounds good. Looking forward to it. So we do have the president of the company versus the CFO here. But I did want to ask one financial question because it was kind of a big deal.
That's why Cameron's here.
That's exactly right.
Yes.
But it was around the covenant or not around the covenant, around the debt. Excuse me. You refinance all of your debt. I think in aggregate, it'll reduce your interest by about 175 basis points a year, off the top of my head. Joe really talked about Joe, the CEO, really talked about giving flexibility to the business for the first time. Flexibility can mean a variety of different things. How should we view that flexibility or the opportunity for that flexibility going forward?
Again, I'll go back to first and foremost, we have a track record of paying down debt, above all else. We'd like to stay well ahead of that. But I will say that this extra liquidity, look, we're looking at things like further investment in the product, to ensure that we stay at the forefront from a value proposition there, also in some different technology, like for the go-to-market motion. But then I'd also say, you know, we're not opposed to the idea of finding some smaller SaaS companies out there, you know, people that were, let's say, highly verticalized, went to market when money was affordable, now can't get money or grow anymore, and they're stuck with 500 customers, but this really cool software application designed just for landscapers.
Can we acquire that at a very, very fair and reasonable rate, multiple of earnings or revenue, and bring them into the fold and get some cool tech to add into our marketplace and sell more specifically to any given vertical where we can find these opportunities? I think those would be real nice to have as we tuck in other SaaS companies. But first and foremost, we'll be paying down the debt. We're kind of obsessed with that a little bit, which I think is okay.
Good.
Cameron, anything you would add? No?
All right. Always good to have flexibility, though, because you never know what'll come across the board.
That's exactly right.
Because I'm a big believer. My finance theory tells me that if you can go out and buy a business that can grow 20% or 30% consistently for the next couple of years, it's probably better than the eight-nine points that you're paying on the debt.
Absolutely.
The valuation over time tends to work out.
Absolutely. That's why we're open to opportunities and acquisition again, which is fantastic.
Awesome. Well, I took care of my 30 minutes. Happy to take any Q&A from the audience. Yes, Miss.
I have a few questions. The first one, which is intriguing to me, is that when a Marketing Services client becomes a, call it, Marketing Center.
Goes over to Marketing Center, yep.
At first, they pay the same price. And then, what is the price difference between what they pay at first and around?
Before you start, I'm just going to repeat the question for anyone. Watching online is.
Absolutely. That's great.
The question is for a customer that's on the Marketing Services business, if they move over to the Marketing Center, what's that maybe price difference look like?
Yeah. So it's a great question. We're not talking about a massive delta where they were spending $20 and they're getting into a $199 product. Most of the products that are coming over are relatively close. So say within, like, $50-ish, monthly spend. So it's pretty close when they come over. But it also does give us some rate-up potential as we move through it. But this is important because if you try to transition people from the traditional side over here and you ask them to pay more at the same time, that's a non-starter. And what's better for them and then for the company in the long term is to get them onto the SaaS platform because where they are now is receiving no more investment. It's going to be sunset. It's not going to be soon best-in-class tools.
So our ability to move them to a more viable platform, but say, "Hey, I'll tell you what. We're moving you. We don't want to cause disruption to your billing. We'll cover sort of that gap for now." But that's the reason why engagement in that is so important to us, ensuring that they log in, ensuring that they understand where to go now. That's a big part of this process is the communication for how to use and get the most value from the new platform.
Can you size the revenue opportunity from eventually getting them to rank with?
The question was just to try to size the revenue opportunity if all of them moved from the legacy platform to the new one.
Yeah. $250 million. We have 315,000 customers, right, that are on the other side. And we're looking to accelerate to the point where SaaS revenue is larger than marketing services revenue. And every one of those clients that we can deliver tremendous value to by doing that, the faster we can do it, the better for them and the better for us.
That's the digital side. $250 million.
Yeah. Sorry. Digital side.
But my guess is that's just converting them to only Marketing Center, not necessarily the whole platform.
Exactly, right.
Yeah. Expansion opportunity.
Once they're on the platform, that doesn't include the expansion.
Great.
No, you're on fire. You keep going.
I have guides to email guides. Okay. The second question, like, sort of related, two questions that are related. When does the client become too large for you to, to procure from you and, right, and go maybe implement an ERP or something, right, more expensive? Relatedly, if one of your clients gets bought out by a much larger firm or just a larger firm that already has something that solves all the needs that you solve, like, do you just end up losing that customer? Like.
So the question was a graduation and an M&A question. Do customers ever outgrow the platform? And if they do, what does that scale look like? And then secondly, if a larger company were to buy one of your customers, do you typically get removed in that?
Yeah. So, the latter one really doesn't happen often. We haven't seen it often. When you talk about the businesses that we're selling, they're mostly true mom-and-pop type businesses, whereas the aggregators seem to be buying a lot of the larger roofing companies or sort of, name brand, local roofing companies in any given market or plumbing companies or HVAC companies, et cetera. And we're already not the provider for the biggest. That's a ServiceTitan. So a ServiceTitan does a great job for sort of everybody in here. If I ask you the biggest plumber in your backyard, you'd be able to name one. You'd be able to name a roofer, an HVAC company. It's just obviously the biggest. That's not for us. That's sort of a ServiceTitan play. When do they outgrow us? Not frequently.
You know, there's not a really large percentage of small businesses that start out at five-nine employees and end up at 50. There are some, but far more that don't. And I would honestly wear it as a badge of honor if we helped with our software platform somebody grow their business and run it so efficiently that they outgrew our platform and had to go to a ServiceTitan because the other side of the funnel is getting filled every day. That's the beauty of small businesses. There's more and more and more being birthed and then entering that realm of not the solopreneur, but when they grow to sort of that 5+ that we get involved with. So it's ever-replenishing, right? Thank you for the questions.
We do have about five minutes left if there's anything else. Well, I'm going to let oh, one more.
Talk about, like, the conviction and the decline rate for Marketing Services. I don't know what has it been over the past few years as it's accelerating?
Yeah. So like Scott had mentioned at the beginning, it's been at, like, 23%-24% recently. Go back a year, it was sort of low 20s. So there hasn't been this rapid acceleration. Has it accelerated on paper? Yes, a couple of %. But from the front lines and from our client care reps that listen to people, we don't have this palpable feeling of pending doom with mass defection coming. And if we do, we'll update. You know, we just don't we see it staying more like the metronome that it is now and staying in that mid-20s area, where it has landed.